Military Vehicle Club of Ontario

chris vickery · #1 08-10-03, 05:00

Got your attention eh? Well that's great. I was just thinking recently that maybe what the people need is a new military vehicle club right here in Ontario, and of course members would be welcome to join from anywhere. This is not a fact as of yet but just a fantasy waiting to become a reality. Was wondering if the enthusiasts out there would welcome a new organization, being that there is already one, ahem, in the province. I have heard rumbling over the years as to the formation of a club for carrier guys, one for cmp'ers, jeep guys etc. Maybe a strictly Second War club? I don't know, just banging away here. Comments, please.

Keith Webb · #2 08-10-03, 07:26

How about a CMP owners club? Hey! what am I saying?!?!
I suppose this forum pretty much functions as an international club already - and without the hassles of officialdom needed to make an official club function.
It would be nice, however for Aussie owners to get something together (with associate members welcome from all over).
Just need someone with some time to coordinate... Builder Bob?

Alex Blair (RIP) · #3 08-10-03, 12:24

http://www.omva.org/

Maybe speading our selves too thin in Ontario with another club...

World wide is another question......

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #4 08-10-03, 13:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I suppose this forum pretty much functions as an international club already - and without the hassles of officialdom needed to make an official club function.

Kinda seems that way, eh? I never planned it this way, but what the hell...

Chris, with various of us now staging events throughout the province (separate from OMVA), do we not already have a defacto club in operation, but without the bureaucratic hassle? The only thing we're lacking here is some kind of printed newsletter and a physical "headquarters", but the way I look at the latter is that it's anywhere two or more of us choose to get together with a case of beer to talk about trucks...

Keith's right in this sense... this has been going for five years now, and it's pretty amazing how widely it has expanded. 'MLU' really belongs to all of us, because it's been all of you who have made it what it is.

In terms of 'artifacts', I'll be spending the winter developing MLU stuff to market (shirts etc) so we'll even have a wider ID to spread around.

Having said that, I agree with your point... and I mentioned this in the other thread -- this grassroots thing is wonderful! We'll set something up in the greater London area for next summer as well, to compliment your and John's work.

Well done!

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #5 08-10-03, 13:56

Keefy

In my 30 hour days I allow the maximum of three hours sleep, and before you say "too much sleep", that is also time I spend with Ada. You argue with her.

If you want to join a club, become a member of the Military Vehicle Collectors Society of South Australia Inc. I'll send you the application forms. Then you all also become members in the National Military Vehicle Museum.

Bob

Jim Burrill · #6 08-10-03, 17:53

Since I am up to my ears in bren carrier activity, I am all for a "carrier "club, but Geoff has the right of it, I think...MLU serves as the central connecting point for us. (What ever happened to the Carrier Platoon Site?)

As for shows, I think the WW2 group we have down here, 15th Recce, fills that bill. As in my earlier post, we are a rallying point for WW2 Armour (and the C-15!). I know other units have vehicles, but it always seems to be an Airborne jeep.

I would love to see another living history group turn out to an event with another carrier.

To that end, I am trying to set up something that I had mentioned to a few of you before: a WW2 event that has the terrain, and logisitcs worth the hassle and cost of dragging your armour from all over NA.

We thought that site might have been Gamp Gruber in OK, but it was just selected to be the National Homeland Security Training Reserve and they decided that allowing WW2 reenactors to hold events there would get in the way of their new mission.

I would like to see an event near to Alan Cors' museum because he will let out his Churchill, Grant, and other armour to come and play.

Ft. Indiantown Gap,PA. is a wash because they have decided to limit the vehicles in the field. Long story, but the small training area they select to keep everyone in walking distance to the busses mean the vehicles have about a mile of road to use. So they want to avoid the "conga line" that results with a pile of vehicles and no place to drive. So, they have been discouraging the heavy armour from attending, and limit the softskins to 2 jeeps and a truck per company (of which they have 4 for all the allies)

Is there any interest in having some kind of "national convention" for Carriers? CMPs?

Cheers,
Jim

Pete Ashby · #7 08-10-03, 21:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Kinda seems that way, eh? I never planned it this way, but what the hell...

Chris, with various of us now staging events throughout the province (separate from OMVA), do we not already have a defacto club in operation, but without the bureaucratic hassle? The only thing we're lacking here is some kind of printed newsletter and a physical "headquarters", but the way I look at the latter is that it's anywhere two or more of us choose to get together with a case of beer to talk about trucks...

Keith's right in this sense... this has been going for five years now, and it's pretty amazing how widely it has expanded. 'MLU' really belongs to all of us, because it's been all of you who have made it what it is.

In terms of 'artifacts', I'll be spending the winter developing MLU stuff to market (shirts etc) so we'll even have a wider ID to spread around

Having said that, I agree with your point... and I mentioned this in the other thread -- this grassroots thing is wonderful! We'll set something up in the greater London area for next summer as well, to compliment your and John's work.

Well done!

Strange that this thread should appear now,
Some of the Oxford CMP crew were sitting at a show last weekend chewing the fat about a CMP based club here in the UK. We also came to the conclusion that MLU was the world stage for CMP collectors. Our thoughts then moved onto the fact that under that banner we could all have national branches (I think you call them chapters in the US and Canada?). These would have to operate under strict guide lines form the central source (I think that means you Geoff) to avoid bad press and disrepute being attracted to the whole, in short it means all the baggage of a full blown club.
When you start to do this it all becomes hard work for a few and can lead to dissension in the ranks from the many (I speak here with experience).

Having said that I do like the idea of some physical manifestation of MLU be it T-shirt, flag, banner etc, it would for example be good for those of us in UK and Europe to have a MLU meet at a major show once a year (not at you know where however).
One point for discussion is this:
In the UK based vintage vehicle press there has been some limited discussion on the detriment to the hobby of single mark clubs, in the classic car and commercial world single mark clubs are not uncommon here in the UK. The discussion went along the lines of single mark gatherings could/can detract from entries at larger mixed class shows and there is some evidence that this view has substance. If this happens the number of venues will decrease to the overall detriment of all, collectors and public alike.
What do others think?

Pete

Keith Webb · #8 08-10-03, 23:13

I like Geoff's idea of T-shirts and Pete's Banner - it will be good to have something to physically ID us as "members" of this international group...
One big assumption we're making is that most potential "members" of our MLU group are in fact online and can access this cameraderie and resources which of course isn't the case - although it is encouraging to see just how many people are continuing to gain access to the net and are joining here.
Part of what I do when I speak to people interested in the subject is to point them to this forum - it's good to see some who have joined and have become regular contributors.
Perhaps, Jif we could publish on all our collective sites a pdf about what we do, who we are and a list of sites and contact points that people can either email or print out to hand out at events and shows... I often think it would be useful to spread the message.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #9 10-10-03, 08:41

Will respond with a few more remarks in the morning... have to get a few hours' sleep in the meantime!

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 10-10-03, 10:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
These would have to operate under strict guide lines form the central source (I think that means you Geoff) to avoid bad press and disrepute being attracted to the whole, in short it means all the baggage of a full blown club.
When you start to do this it all becomes hard work for a few and can lead to dissension in the ranks from the many (I speak here with experience).

That's why I'm quite happy with things as they go...

I think with MLU as an international rallying point for CMP enthusiasts, the makings of a worldwide community are already here. As many CMP enthusiasts are not online, what we could work on is a better visibility outside the world of internet.

MLU T-shirts, banners, handouts etc. will all help to publicize MLU. We could all have an article printed about MLU in the other/local HMV clubs we are members of. Geoff can do the merchandising, it will help tremendously in Keeping Maple Leaf Up! (hint

)

Annual gatherings in Europe, North America and Australia can be organised by whoever feels like it - we're all adults so I don't think there is a need to formally coordinate this out of London, Ontario. The gathering can be just that - like-minded people coming together at an already staged event. That is the main reason why I went to "you know where" for the past few years.

Shall we say our annual European CMP meet for 2004 will be at Wings & Wheels, Ursel, Belgium? (We still need to break that Corowa 2002 record...)

Robert Dabkowski · #11 18-10-03, 06:11

Chris, since you don't seem to like the way that the OMVA is run, why don't you join the executive and help to improve the organization ? If memory serves you are a member.

I bitched from the sidelines for years too but discovered that change happens faster from within than from without. Still far from perfect but getting better.

Surely it would be easier to change course than to build a new ship ? Or do you want to play Captain Bligh yourself ?

Robert Dabkowski (OMVA Membership Secretary)

Pete Ashby · #12 18-10-03, 23:51

Geoff

Keith and I are still a waiting your thoughts, would like to know what your take on this is

Pete

chris vickery · #13 19-10-03, 01:38

The military vehicle hobby, like any other is all about friendships, preservation, history and fun. I do this because I like it. NO, Robert, I chose not to run for exec in the OMVA. Like many organizations, decisions are made to the benefit of the few, and generally do not reflect the majority. I am tired of the BS infiltrating my interests, I get enough BS at work. For once I'd like to see a group get along, afterall the key is to achieve the same end. As far as the OMVA goes, I have heard my share of stories regarding the petty BS over the years. If a guy, or a group of guys decides to put on an event, bravo. Unfortunately, large groups sometimes have so much red tape etc. that a good idea that is spur of the moment fails because of bureacracy, conflicting interests, ideas etc. I can understand this point of view. My suggestion of a new group to represent second war owners was merely a suggestion, not a cast in stone idea meant to overthrow the powers that be. Myself, I look forward to any and all events which include CMP vehicles, regardless of the agenda behind the scenes.

:

#14 19-10-03, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Having said that I do like the idea of some physical manifestation of MLU be it T-shirt, flag, banner etc, it would for example be good for those of us in UK and Europe to have a MLU meet at a major show once a year (not at you know where however).

You hadn't noticed then that the Shirrell Heath Long Range Display Group, who attend most major shows, always take and display the large MLU board so kindly donated by the esteemed Binnington-Swall many years ago.

I can confirm (yesterday) it is currently safely stored as always with four self-tappers on the inside of DTB F15 Ballard's garage door. Shortly I shall check again whilst grabbing the lump hammer and huge steel drift to release the top, centre, suspension pin. . . . . . . . . . .

R.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #15 19-10-03, 19:04

Sorry I haven't been more active in all this... but as you know, my working schedule right now is awkward at best, and of course, the whole bit Thursday/Friday ref the IP address screwup was a bit of a challenge. Lord help me, I don't want to go through THAT again!

You know, I really do think this internet thing has changed the whole nature of this hobby... it is a vehicle which has brought people from all over this world together, something which previously only happened vicariously to a very few, usually only those immersed so deeply that they had the benefit of 'inside' contact information, whether through club magazines or word-of-mouth.

This is a whole different animal.

What we have here is unique... as small as this particular community is, it is linked by common interest, mutual friendships and abiding respect for others of the same ilk in every corner of the world. In short, it somehow seems to transcend the sometimes nasty politics of local clubs, yet without the huge costly bureaucracy associated with larger, more general organizations such as the MVPA or MVT. Do I want to emulate them, or for that matter the OMVA or even the MVCSSA (which Bob mentioned below in response to Keefy's first post)? No. I have neither the time nor money to even attempt that, but even if so, would it really buy us anything we don't have now?

Very little, in my humble opinion.

I'm not saying that out of vanity for what MLU has achieved these last five years... far from it. Hell, I only started this, you fellows and your response to my stumbling efforts are who and what has made it what it is.

No, what I'm saying is that we seem to have evolved - quite instinctively it seems - a new way of doing things, compared to the "old order" of a traditional military vehicle club. Our membership here, and my daily correspondance, involves a lot more and encompasses a much greater area of interest than "just" vehicles. Sure, these are our first loves, built and maintained at an expense of time and money which is, and should remain, incalculable. But it's what they represent which draws others here, the Karmens of this world for instance, and I can't see my way clear to limiting their interest and influence, because they also represent the past, present and future of the legacy our boys left after six years of torment and sacrifice so long ago.

What we're doing is right... the whole has become greater than the simple sum of the parts. It's something wonderful I never, ever, envisioned in 1998, but it's happened on its own, and I've never been more proud and simultaneously more humble.

It seems from my experience in all this, and from the discussion in this thread, that the mission is the get the message out, to build and expand on what we have already. Those of us here now are already intangibly and forever linked to each other... but there are yet more out there who would join our own little 'band of brothers' had they the knowledge and the means (the internet, of course is limited to those who have access). So, how do we do this?

Well, as Richard [FV623] Notton mentioned, since 2000 when I went to Beltring with a hand-painted MLU sign, it has remained there, both as a gift to Mr. Ballard and as an absentee representation of all that we stand for. And I know for a fact that it is indeed displayed prominently at every show they attend - for that I am forever grateful.

You should know that this sign was handpainted after original photos of original examples, by Bruce Parker. He did a hell of a good job, and his fine work has, by now, been viewed, admired and respected by many thousands since then. He deserves the credit, not me.

Bruce has been a friend for almost 30 years, has owned CMPs (and still does), and remains as passionately dedicated to the men this history represents as do I. The difference between us is that he spends his spare time building trucks, armoured cars, carriers and the like, while I spend mine doing this stuff... I think we compliment each other pretty well, although it can get pretty pricey once we hit the beer store together...

Lads (and lassies), what we're going to do is this...

This winter, MLU will be incorporated as a federal, non-profit organization dedicated to the history, sacrifice and remembrance of those who went to war on our behalf in 1939-1945. We will produce the items we've spoken about before, for sale and general distribution, and we will endeavour to spread The Word by creating an organizational membership such as, for example, the Friends of the Tank Museum (Bovington, of which I am one). It'll be slow-starting, and I'll need help, but I know this will work - we are indeed already established...

What I will try to arrange is the availability of more signs such as Richard mentioned - if I buy Parker enough beer he'll paint some more - and distribute them at cost to whomever is interested. We'll also get out some flyer-type resources in 8 1/2 x 11 and A4 formats, which you can download and print out yourselves.

MLU will support any individuals or group who wish to put together any gathering which will honour the memory of those whose lives once depended upon this stuff we spend so much time on. Not financially, of course - I work for a living from paycheck to paycheck as do most of us - but morally, we're here for you, wherever you are.

Your comments and suggestions, are, of course, welcome at any time.

And I thank you for your support to-date. It humbles me.

Geoff

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #16 19-10-03, 19:42

Thinking aloud here.........

Based upon Jim's comment ref The Carrier Platoon... I own and have been paying for UNIVERSALCARRIER.ORG for three years now, but haven't done much with it due to time constraints... but it IS a good concept. I think what I might do is keep the domain, but redirect it into a subdomain of MLU, and perhaps run it as an extension of MLU (which it always really was). Rather than try to organize it as a separate entity, pehaps it would behoove us to incorporate its interests into what we're doing now, but perhaps with a separate identity. Hmmm... all thoughts on the subject welcome.

And in that vein, is a separate CMP subdomain, with attendant separate staus, desired as well? The forum would remain as-is, but would separate membership cards be appreciated or justified? You guys tell me.

Just a thought.

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #17 20-10-03, 00:14

Hi Geoff

You, like many of us volunteers and organisers around the world, suffer from the same problem. We want to be all things to everyone. The solution is DELEGATE . Once I learnt this I found that others also had the skills I had, and in fact quite often came up with better solutions.

All you need is the Master Plan, identify the talents you have at your disposal and then DELEGATE .

It works for me and I achieve a lot more.

And the other thing is take time to chill out. I do this by reading MLU. Try enjoying it and not just administering it. It really is rather good.

By the way Ada & I chilled out last weekend on a field trip. Pics to follow.

Bob

Pete Ashby · #18 22-10-03, 23:06

Thanks for coming back on this thread Geoff, I fully agree and endorse your thoughts. Count the Oxford crew in and keep us up up to speed with developments.

I too think that the internet has changed the MV world for the better, for a whole range of reasons that I don't need to bore people with here.

Best regards

Pete

Jim Burrill · #19 23-10-03, 00:02

Geoff,
First off, I have loved the "look and feel" of the Carrier Platoon site from the begining. I hope you can simply add it in to the overall MLU site.

Although I like the idea of a dedicated site, quite frankly, I thought you were spending precious time doing some things twice.
Also, some people would see the info on MLU and then were supprised when they found out the "Canadian military site with the carriers on it" was not the Carrier Platoon site that I told them of.

I can only think that you might have the button for Carriers with the rest of the MVs, but that jumps over into the CP pages, perhaps with a bit of re-write on the intro page.

15 Recce is currently building a new website (soon to be at 15thRecce.org) and will have as much details as I can build on our carriers, both historical and modern. I will also have a 'Lessons Learned" about driving them from the rather novel point of view of having 4 other men riding, driving, and camping out of a carrier. On that note, I would welcome any other Tips from this list. Perhaps a way to re-post that knowledge in MLU?

Linking is all well and good, but I am finding out that linking out from your site in the middle of a topic risks loosing the reader.

Anyway, be tickled to help the Carrier portion of MLU anyway I can.

Cheers,
Jim