1940 Chev C15, Cab 11 restoration in Holland - Page 3

Bob Carriere · #61 04-03-10, 03:49

First set of pcitures is the original insyallation for a cab 13.... of course they have the extra room under the enigne cover to allow for that....

Pictures of cab 11/12 set up coming next....

Boob

Bob Carriere · #62 04-03-10, 03:58

These pictures show the actual location on a HUP frame which by coincidence is the same as for a cab 11/12.

From my limited experience..... every cab 11 and cab 12 that I have acquired and worked on NEVER had an oil filter installed....even retro fitted. Remember these are trucks that probably never left Canada and were never retrofitted with oil filters in field workshops.... probably giving priority for front line use. Similarly most cab 11 in Canada do not even have the bolt holes drilled in the frame for the fuel filter....which is located on the opposite side under the driver's seat.

Any ways the HUP pictures clearly shows the ackward location inside the frame on the passenger side...... mechanics must have loved doing filter changes and getting an oil bath everytime....

Glad to see that my thousands of pictures are finally useful....

Boob

Bob Carriere · #63 04-03-10, 04:06

On the original installation... the oil lines have a reverse flare and are called ... not sure if I am correct.... a Weatherhead connection..... and they are next to impossible to find today...... which means that you have to fabricate your own junction brass block as the original will ONLY accept the reverse flare tip on the hose.

If any one can share more information on these weird old style design please chip in...

Boob

cliff · #64 04-03-10, 05:36

Bob the original brass junction block may have been drilled out rather then milled out hence the tapered ends on the hose fittings. Is it not possible to put the modern square ended hose fitting into a lathe and turn a taper on the end the same as the original as they look the same length?

Phil Waterman · #65 04-03-10, 18:10

The picture attached is of my 1941 C60L Pattern 12 as I found the truck. The filter location is shown and is the same as on my 1942 C60s Pattern 13. This has got to be one of the nastiest places to try and drain, remove the filter, clean out the filter housing oil all drains down on the exhaust pipe nice to work on if you just shut the engine down to drain the oil while it is hot.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #66 04-03-10, 21:16

The inside of the brass block looks carefully machined to accept the matching tapper of the oil line....... the modern fitting will screw on but will leak a lot under pressure due to the absence of a mating surface. The easiest would be to either make a new block externally identical but set up to take modern fittings or machine a brass adapter to fit the tapper and accept the new thread style at the other end.

Occasionnaly the old style oil line appears on Ebay BUT are usualy too short to be of any use.

Phil ...... hot engine oil down your sleeve is a sure way to wake you up in the morning....... none of these vehicles..... especially the cab11/12 were ever design for the comfort of anyone.... mechanics or the drivers....

...and being sadistic and masochistic that's why we love them...

Boob

cletrac (RIP) · #67 04-03-10, 22:12

A few wraps of teflon tape on the threads would likely solve the problem.

jaap de wit · #68 09-03-10, 19:06

Thanks guy's for all the helpfull info, before I show some more pictures I wondering how did they fill up that oil filter after replaceing the filter element?
oke back to my own project I placed the gearbox in it's place and installed the small compressor on the left side. I also started on the fueltank brackeds witch needs new straps to hold the tank. I strated on the tank to and under all the dirt and old paint I found the original number Z4200302 I did not see a C so ... I want to make it british anyway (because of the british radiobody).
see the next reply to for more...
cheers jaap

jaap de wit · #69 09-03-10, 19:21

the fuel tank was very clean inside so it needed not much work. I cleaned the brass plate with the valve and sender holl and it looks fine. the sender I am not sure about I cleaned it and try to test it with the gauge and it was not working good, is there a easy way to test the sender ?
I used a mall to paint the number back on the tank and then putt it on it's brackeds, I used rubber strips between the tank and the brackeds.
Dos'nt it looks great, to bad I have only one tank. I am looking for the lefthand side tank with the small filling pipe and the brass plate with the valve and sender unit, so if anybody nows one.
cheers jaap

Phil Waterman · #70 09-03-10, 21:07

"Thanks guy's for all the helpfull info, before I show some more pictures I wondering how did they fill up that oil filter after replacing the filter element?"

If you are speaking of the horizontally mounted oil filter the simple answer they didn't. The vertically mounted filter of course you pour in 1-2 quarts slowly after you put in the filter then put the top on.

It really is not much of a problem with the Chevy splash/spray lubrication system as there are nearly two quarts of oil trapped in the troughs, which any of us who have flipped over a 216 Chev without first removing the oil pan discovered as the oil ran out onto the floor. This oil trapped in the troughs will lubricate the lower end of the engine until the oil pressure comes up and the spray jets take over. I’ve done some test and the Chevy oil system though low pressure moves a lot of oil. See http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...Page%20Two.htm for some pictures

But you raise a very important point do not just dump in 6 quarts of oil in a freshly assembled engine and try to start it. You really need to prime the oil system, use a electric drill down through the mounting for the distributor. Dumping in the oil does not insure that the troughs are filled.

Cheers Phil

Ausmick · #71 09-03-10, 22:45

Hi Phil,

I was wondering about the same thing, priming the oil system, when my current project gets that far. Could you simply just use the crank handed to get the oil thrown about a bit? Or would this not work.

Mick

Grant Bowker · #72 09-03-10, 23:26

The reason Phil suggested using the drill down the distributor mount hole is that by doing this you drive the oil pump directly without turning any other part of the engine so that if you have any dry bearing surfaces they will be lubricated before they are moved.

cletrac (RIP) · #73 10-03-10, 00:22

Any of those older motors were bypass oil filters so filling the filter isn't important since the filtered oil just returns to the oil pan.
If you use assembly lube when putting an engine together you can just spin it over on the starter with no spark until you get oil pressure then give it spark to fire up. You can even do this before you put the spark plugs in and then there's no compression to load the bearings before the oil hits.
The old drill on the pump drive works on motors with the drive gear on the distributor shaft but that's it.

Bob Carriere · #74 10-03-10, 04:07

<<<"The old drill on the pump drive works on motors with the drive gear on the distributor shaft but that's it. ">>>>

Hi Dave

I have never fully realized the differences on priming a 235/261 vs the original 216. As pointed out by Phil...... without the oil trough filled with oil the initial start up is much more critical.

So my question Dave is.... concerning the quote above.... would it not be beneficial to prime a 216 with a drill in the dizzy hole to make sure the oil passages are at least well filled similar to the practice used for a 235/261..?

I can vouch for the amount of pressure you can build up with a HD 3/8 inch electric drill.... the temporary mechanical gauge showed 40+ psi...just before the oil hoses to the external filter were blown off the fittings as I did not think I would need hose clamps just for a check up. With the 1/2 inch lines to the filter I lost over two quarts of oil on the floor.

BooB

Japp..... very nice job..... following your postings with interest in view of the similarity to my C15a cab 11

Alex Blair (RIP) · #75 10-03-10, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaap de wit

the fuel tank was very clean inside so it needed not much work. I cleaned the brass plate with the valve and sender holl and it looks fine. the sender I am not sure about I cleaned it and try to test it with the gauge and it was not working good, is there a easy way to test the sender ?
I used a mall to paint the number back on the tank and then putt it on it's brackeds, I used rubber strips between the tank and the brackeds.
Dos'nt it looks great, to bad I have only one tank. I am looking for the lefthand side tank with the small filling pipe and the brass plate with the valve and sender unit, so if anybody nows one.
cheers jaap

Jaap..
Putting the rubber gaskets under the tank straps may effect the grounding of the tank itself..with out witch your gas gage may not work..I'm going from memory here but I believe that the tank sending unit is a one wire sending unit and depends on the tank being grounded to have the guage read properly..other wise it may read all over the place or not work at all..
Don't know but makes sense to me..Check it out.

But beautiful work on your vehicle..

Bob Carriere · #76 11-03-10, 03:13

Alex..... the original tanks were mounted on a braided canvass ribbon impreganted with some coal tar substance of some sort and would ALSO have acted as an electrical isolator...also reduced squeaks and friction between metals... BUT the fuel line is steel and properly grounds everywhere on the frame with hold down clips.

These same canvas strips eventually (40 + years) became dry and absorbed water which usually rotted the underside of the fuel tanks..

Boob

Lynn Eades · #77 11-03-10, 04:58

This is for those us that don't know, but don't want to ask.
These filters are bypass filters, and as such, would have little effect on the oil pressure to the rest of the engine. They are connected on the inlet side to a main pressure gallery. The flow through the filter housing is by way of a restrictor hole or holes, at the inlet to the filter housing (often a small pair of holes in the tube in the centre of the housing)The oil exits these holes,as a minimal flow, passes through the element, and returns to the sump. The bypass filter typically uses a finer media than a full flow system,and has no alternative route when the filter blocks up. (the flow just stops)
Basically you can change the filter. Re-assemble it dry, with the new filter. Run up the engine,(checking for leaks) and then top up your sump.
None of this has anything to do with priming, and starting a rebuilt engine, or full flow filters.

Phil Waterman · #78 11-03-10, 21:41

Hi All

Well I found my handy dandy Chevy Oil System priming tool. Which is a 7 3/4inch long bit of 3/8ths rod stock heated and flatted at one end to match the thickness of the distributor end. Chucked up in a hand drill plug in type if you want to run it for any length of time. Produces 30psi in a 216 Chevy engine and produces 40psi in a 235 or 261 engine.

(note first one of these I made I used a piece of steel tubing flattened at one end nice fit but the tip quickly broke off, luckily I was able to fish it out with a magnet, pain if it drops into the pan. While your at it be sure your drill bit is really nice and tight on the shaft I dropped the drive bit once and it almost slid into the oil pan.)

When I'm building up and engine on the test stand I have a block heater which brings the engine up 140 F then I run the primer once the block is warm it is surprising how fast the oil starts to warm up then with no plugs in the engine I spin the engine over while running the drill.

Lynn in talking about bypass filters mentions a very important point the original by pass filters had a small orifice fitting or tube to control the amount of oil that would go back directly to the sump. If you are installing a newer filter system you may need to add a restricted fitting to not have two much oil flow through the filter. Watch the oil pressure as you go through the first engine test and get the oil up to engine temperature.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #79 11-03-10, 21:56

In response to your question yes, easier to test the tank senders than it is to check the fuel gauge. I use a ohms meter just raise and lower the float arm and the ohms meter should change. I've got a couple of senders out I'll try and remember to check them and see what they read for resistance at the full and empty positions.

About the tank straps originally my 1945 HUP had a tar coated cloth band between the tank and the strap. While my 1942 C60S had rubber strips between the tank and the steel strap. Both had the woven ground straps that have been mentioned, though the all steel fuel line provides a pretty good ground back to the fuel tank selector and filter if you don't mind the idea of gas line being a electrical ground.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #80 16-03-10, 21:25

I remembered today to grab the fuel tank senders I have and take an ohms reading on them. I check two NOS ones I had on the shelf as well as the senders on my C60L.

The C60L which reads 1/2 full tanks .013 Ohm on one tank and 3/4 on the other at .034 Ohms

The two NOS read .003 to .005 empty .017 to .019 half way and .034 to .036 full.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Phil

jaap de wit · #81 23-03-10, 20:55

thanks for the measurements phil I think my sender is dead so up to buy a new one. the trick with the oilpomp and the drill works fine thanks for the tipp guy's. after this I cranked the engine for the first time, that worked well. then I took some compression pressure measurements and this showed a little leaking in 2 cilinders (valves) so off go's the head again and the valves neaded a little bit more grinding and cleaning now they are oke. so the head is backon again and then try again. I also made the arge like new and placed it on the chassis now it starts looking more like a truck.
cheers jaap

Ganmain Tony · #82 24-03-10, 00:55

She is starting to look awesome Jap!!!!

Before you go beserk with the cab. Id whack the drive shaft in, rig up a ignition system, put in the radiator and take her for a quick spin. That way you can check how she brakes and drives.

Not to mention the motivation it'll give you to keep at it.

Not that you seem to be lacking in energy.

Phil Waterman · #83 24-03-10, 15:55

Hi Jaap

Could you take a photo head on of the cab frame? Want to see if there are any differences in the drivers side rail between the 11 and 12 Cab.

Truck is looking great.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #84 24-03-10, 19:17

Hi Phil

Anything I can measure up for you....? I have both and never noticed a difference.....

Boob

Phil Waterman · #85 24-03-10, 22:05

Hi Bob

No just that the pictures Jaap posted makes the drivers side look straighter than the one on my Pat 12 or the frame you brought down for me.

May just be the angle, or I wondered if there was a difference on the Pat 11&12 that we had not noticed.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #86 25-03-10, 03:09

Hi Phil

The only differences I know of is that the driver's side has more curve to fit the steering wheel shaft than the curve on the pass. side.

I can take measurements of both cab 11 and 12 and photos if necessary.

Bob C.

jaap de wit · #87 29-03-10, 18:34

tony youré right about the driveshaft it will drive a lot beter I think

first I have to do some more things before I can start her up for the first time.
the compression is oke now so now the ignition can be setup.
about phils question about head on pictures of the cap frame, here they are the driver side has more curves than the other side, hope this helps.
so ad the end of the week I am off for a short holyday to get my battery charged up.

cheers jaap

Phil Waterman · #88 29-03-10, 19:19

Hi Jaap

Those pictures are just what I was looking for, and confirm what Bob was saying about being the same. I was just curious if the Pat 11 & 12 really share the same spacious foot room design. The other question that your picture does seem to confirm is that the C15 and the C60 Pattern 11& 12 are the same size. I was wondering if there was a difference to because of the larger tire size.

Cheers Phil

jaap de wit · #89 18-05-10, 21:07

yes I am back and my batterij is charged up again and I had to stay there 10 more day's before I could fligh home because of a vulcano in island, oooh that was so bad 10 day's extra holiday and not working on the truck

oke back to work, I setup the ignition and placed the fuel, vaccium, vent lines
and the carburateur inplace. then the radiator is put in whitch took some adjustments to fit. it starts to look more and more like a truck now.
so the big moment comes close to start her up for the first time in .... I don't know in how many years, so wish me luck.

cheers jaap

Alex Blair (RIP) · #90 18-05-10, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaap de wit

yes I am back and my batterij is charged up again and I had to stay there 10 more day's before I could fligh home because of a vulcano in island, oooh that was so bad 10 day's extra holiday and not working on the truck

oke back to work, I setup the ignition and placed the fuel, vaccium, vent lines
and the carburateur inplace. then the radiator is put in whitch took some adjustments to fit. it starts to look more and more like a truck now.
so the big moment comes close to start her up for the first time in .... I don't know in how many years, so wish me luck.

cheers jaap

Jaap..
You are doing a good job..great job..in fact..Before you start your engine,take off your rocker valve cover and pull out your distributor..
it should build oil pressure with the starter motor. You might want to pull the distributor and prelube the engine, using a drill motor and a screwdriver shank, to turn the oil pump.
Make sure you have good oil flow to the rocker arms..it will squirt out of the rocker arms with great force..or it should so cover the rocker arm with a clean cloth to catch the oil spray..or you'll Be sorry..!!
The missus will be pissed at you when she has to clean the oil off the ceiling..!!!

If you run the drill for more than a few seconds and don't get good pressure, something is wrong! and you don't' want to run the engine till you figure it out and fix it.