Ford Blitz Restoration/Rebuild

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Working alone, figuring out how to lift and position awkward and heavy parts, here is the rigging for the front hub.

Shown here is the entire hub end hanging from engine hoist bar of chain fall.

Cheers Phil

[Private_collector]

Phil,

Your photos almost sent me scurrying off to the workshop with a flashlight, because I couldn't remember seeing large castle nuts, and certainly didn't take any locking plates off. Then I checked through all the billions of photos I have taken, and saw the castle nut type is what I have.

I do like your method of installing the steering ends.

I can do the same, because I bought new U bolts for the rear axle this afternoon. What has that got to do with easily installing the steering ends? Simple. Until I can permanantly attach the rear axle to springs, I won't trust the chassis not to fall, so my engine crane is attached to the pintle spring with a chain, just in case something slips. Once I get the U bolts painted and installed, then I can remove the engine crane, freeing it up to help reassemble front axle bits!

[Private_collector]

This afternoon I completed a 4 hour round trip to retrieve a large square plastic container, which I intend to use for stripping rust and other contaminants off ferous metal parts, in conjunction with caustic soda. The plastic 'cube' container is one of those which are often seen on heavy haulage vehicles. It sits in a metal cage framework designed to allow stackability and a degree of strength. I believe the approximate volume, when full, would be somewhere in the vicinity of 1000L........ish. While I certainly won't be filling the entire container, I want to have sufficient volume to immerse something the size of a gearbox case.
Some time ago, I was very impressed with what I could achieve when using a bath of caustic soda and electrolosis (or is it electrolysis?). I want to incorporate an electric charge in the use of the newly acquired tank, but have "LMF" when it comes to having a battery charger running when I am not able to closely monitor it myself. In fact, as we run almost solely off a stand-alone solar electric system, I wouldn't be comfortable with that scenario at all.

So here's my query; I have been giving thought to a somewhat unusual idea. We run the house on a solar collection system, so why not power the cleaning tank with a similar principal? Now, I don't know very much about solar panels, so I can't even be sure if the amperage would be sufficient. A supply of 2.5 to 3 amps should do, at least that was the current I used when playing with the battery charger all those months ago. Any higher amperage and the charger would cycle off & on, falsely detecting a high current return to the unit.

Does anyone have sufficient knowledge to offer some guidance as to whether this idea has legs or should be forgotten about?

All assistance appreciated,

[Lynn Eades]

1ml. is a gram, is a cc., when it comes to water (sg =1.0). so....
100mm x 100mm x 100mm is equal to 1 litre.......
which leads on to;
1 metre x 1 metre x 1 metre is equal to 1000 litres which is equal to 1 ton of water. Example 8700 litres is 8.7 metric tons...... Don't you just love metrics!..(sometimes anyway)
Or theres......
1 gallon of water equals 10 lb, and there are 6 1/4 gallons to the cubic foot...... etc.

Why cant you use a small solar panel?. More panel = more voltage = more hydrogen = bigger bang! I guess you would want a switch well away from the tank.
Just set it up at the other end of the paddock, from the house. (or shed at least) Be careful!!
I am still enjoying your thread (as it seems, are many others) keep it going.

You should be able to check out solar panels on the net. This country is full of them.

[Private_collector]

Well bugger me! I just noticed you're here in gods own country, Lynn. How long have you been here? A fellow by the name of Paul , who has the HotRod shop in Gympie, tells me he knows you. Met you some time ago apparently.

Now that you're not that far, pop up here and have a look for yourself. Can't be more than a few thousand kilometres. Bet you know what that is in chains, leagues, furlows or yards! Sounds like I wasn't too far off with the volume of that tank though.

Since I posted the previous thread, I went looking at solar panels on ebay. Solar is the way I will go, without a doubt. The tank comes to me with a nice lid to keep curious animals out, and even has a couple of metal rods that sit across the top to hang bits (and the accompanying metal electrode) from. I'll get it off the trailer tomorrow, and take a couple of photos.

About solar panels. I will be needing something in the vicinityof 40W, which will produce roughly the amperage I want, to allow a nice slow process, devoid of harmful gas buildup or, hopefully, explosions. The tank will most certainly be a looooong way from the house or fire pile. If I choose wisely, the selected solar panel should be able to just run all through the day, without supervision, and an inspection in evening will quickly tell me if it runs another days worth, or if the job has been done!

I'm quite excited about this project, and will be deciding on the ideal location for the tank tomorrow. That said, the priority for the day will be getting color on the rear axle U bolts, and the tie-rod as well. With those bits painted, it's time to reassemble the front axle and steering. I left the front diff cluster with a local engineering co. yesterday, for them to remove the carrier bearings. Those were impossible for me to cleanly remove at home, and too big for Gympie Bearing Service to fit in their press. I got that back this afternoon, job well done. I now have everything I need (bar a few new bolts) to finish that assembly. Only need to put in the effort now. I'm on annual leave this week, so unless I have to go on another parts run later this week, I should at least make a serious dent in the reassembly.

[David Dunlop]

Since hydrogen is a light gas and your container has a lid, could you not cut a couple of three inch holes in the top, one to either end and cover then with some nylon or fibreglass screening to vent the gas?

In a pinch, a small blower motor like those used to cool computer boxes could be safely added to exhaust from one opening.

Once you are all set up, do you think the locals will suspect you are making your own alcohol?

David

[Private_collector]

Yeah David, i'll need to make some sort of way to get rid of gas buildup. Haven't given any thought yet to how this will happen, but would prefer something that does not require electricity. There won't be power available, apart from solar. I have a spare rotary vent somewhere here that is meant to go on a roof and vent heat & moisture. That would work well.

I'm lucky to live rural and have a decent size piece of land, so very few neighbours to ponder exactly what the tank is for. Some years ago we had a couple of serial killers here in Australia that were putting the victims bodies into plastic drums filled with an acid, in an attempt to disolve the remains. I hope no one thinks my tank is for the same thing!

[Private_collector]

My NOS valves arrived today.

So did the new main bearings.

Here are the recently arrived con rod bearings, STD size.

Couldn't resist making the first new full valve set. Only another 15 to go.

Normally I would do this inside in the evening, but if I start removing all the protective mucus from the valves on the loungeroom floor, I won't be very popular. My wife can't stand the smell of turpentine, nor does she like the cosmoline smell. Guess i'm waiting until tomorrow then.

[Private_collector]

Yesterday I took some tools (no one you'd know ) and bought a spare front axle, as a 'just in case' for the future. A reasonable buy at $100.

It was virtually unmolested, but has had replacement brake hoses at some time.
Unfortunately it doesn't have the lifting flanges that I wanted, so I continue the search for those.

Incidentally, One of the hubs was stuck fast to the brake shoes, and had to be removed for a cleanup before I could roll it to it's resting place. When I removed the hub cap I found that this axle has the same system of locking hub nuts as Phil showed in his earlier photos. That being; Twin hub nuts with a double layer of lock ring between, and a keyed washer installed before the nuts. There is also holes through the thread for a cotter pin and castle nut, so I suppose it could use that method as well.

[Tim Lovelock]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

This afternoon I completed a 4 hour round trip to retrieve a large square plastic container, which I intend to use for stripping rust and other contaminants off ferous metal parts, in conjunction with caustic soda. The plastic 'cube' container is one of those which are often seen on heavy haulage vehicles. It sits in a metal cage framework designed to allow stackability and a degree of strength. I believe the approximate volume, when full, would be somewhere in the vicinity of 1000L........ish. While I certainly won't be filling the entire container, I want to have sufficient volume to immerse something the size of a gearbox case.
Some time ago, I was very impressed with what I could achieve when using a bath of caustic soda and electrolosis (or is it electrolysis?). I want to incorporate an electric charge in the use of the newly acquired tank, but have "LMF" when it comes to having a battery charger running when I am not able to closely monitor it myself. In fact, as we run almost solely off a stand-alone solar electric system, I wouldn't be comfortable with that scenario at all.

So here's my query; I have been giving thought to a somewhat unusual idea. We run the house on a solar collection system, so why not power the cleaning tank with a similar principal? Now, I don't know very much about solar panels, so I can't even be sure if the amperage would be sufficient. A supply of 2.5 to 3 amps should do, at least that was the current I used when playing with the battery charger all those months ago. Any higher amperage and the charger would cycle off & on, falsely detecting a high current return to the unit.

Does anyone have sufficient knowledge to offer some guidance as to whether this idea has legs or should be forgotten about?

All assistance appreciated,

Hi Tony, I love the method of electrolysis to remove rust etc. I guess as you may have discovered it is a very quick method with some items. I've cleaned up tools in as little as 1/2 an hour.
The way I did it was to connect a car battery to the item and water +/- etc. then connect the charger to the battery.
So would connecting a solar panel to a battery do the same as the charger in keeping power up to the battery.
But I'm not an electrician or auto elec, I discovered electrolysis on the Internet. I'm sure there are wiser heads out there that could answer your enquiry.
Cheers Tim

[Private_collector]

G'day Tim,

If the battery were a deep cycle type, I could probably do that. A standard car or truck battery wouldn't last very long with repeated drainings. I'm wanting to avoid any form of current storage. If I don't have one, it can't give me problems. Am hoping to call into the local battery & solar shop tomorrow for a bit of information.

I know that by using only a PV panel I won't get much happening through the night, but that suits me fine, it'll start again the next morning.

With the ridiculous changes to electricity charges about to kill off (or badly wound) the solar energy industry, it shouldnt be too hard to find a relatively inexpensive and suitable panel for this project.

The only presently unresolved issue is the eventual disposal of used caustic soda. There's always local creeks or sports grounds I suppose!

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, you are certainly entertaining, with the grass in kalgoorlie, the caustic etc.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi guys - the medium to use in the solution is washing soda not caustic soda. I posted a full discussion on this subject in 2003 and if you search MLU under the keywords "electrolysis derusting" you will find the full details. This post was what started the Restoration Forum.

Bob

[Private_collector]

Bob is right, in a fashion. A large number of sources advise use of washing soda over caustic, for amateur usage (like me!), as it is not such an aggressive proces, nor does it pose the same environmental risks of exposure or disposal. Washing soda can be easily disposed of and is not harmful to environment. On a small scale, or where speed is preferred, caustic soda will rip the crud off faster (so say sources that have used both methods), but disposal and exposure do present a problem in large volume. The disposal is an issue for me. I don't have anywhere to pour hundreds of litres of contaminated material, whereas washing soda does little harm if dispersed onto bare ground. In my case, I would need to run a pipe or hose of roughly 40m length, so that disposal occurs behind my farm dam, not straight into it!

All those concerns aside, my experience with caustic soda and a 2.5 to 3 amp charge, has produced dramatic results in a short period of time. I don't expect washing soda is as timely under the same circumstances. With the volume of tank, and manner of process I will be using, speed (or possibly better described as aggression) is of no great concern, provided I can start one weekend and remove, finished, the next. So the washing soda does have some advantages, and caustic soda has others, while acknowledging the negatives.

With regards to Washing Soda for electrolysis, instead of caustic soda, the following sites give straight forward information on setup of equipment and theory involed. There are slight contradictions between the two sources, but I suspect these are due to respective results of the authors.

http://www.robotroom.com/Rust-Removal.html There are a number of pages to the article.

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp This one is quite short and to the point. It also speaks about making washing soda from baking soda.

After a wider search, I found great discrepancies in the amperage suggested. Some say 2 amps sufficient, some 5 to 6, some much higher, and one even talks about using the power source of an arc welder! Ouch. The power bill would be huge.

Having never bouht washing soda, I looked into availability. From what has been written by others searching, there seems to be a theme. The larger grocery stores like Woolworths & Coles have apparently cut this line, while the small independent stores like IGA may still carry it. Also, the soda in powder form s recommended over soda crystals. It's said to be quicker to disolve.

If all this caustic VS washing soda, low VS high amps, 'do this' VS 'do that' gets a little tiresome.......me too. I guess the only way to see which one is best results, and lets face it, that's what is important to me, is to do trials on both chemical types and at various amperage. It'll be quite fun to do such experiments. Takes me back to my school days, in science class. Hopefully this time nothing catches fire! I'm keen to give the alternative a trial. At least I know it won't eat my lungs away! Does anyone know what the engine cleaning guys use?
If washing soda shows to be anywhere near as good as caustic, it'll work for me, because I plan to run the process over such a long period of time. I only hope that oxidising overnight doesn't counteract the de-rusting benefits during the day (solar panel, remember).

I'll see if I can find some washing soda next week. Lets see how it goes.

Good on ya, Bob!

Lastly, have a look at this impressive setup, by one industrious fellow.

I like this very much. Good way to ensure 'line of sight' reaction!

Added 2040hrs: This is a very comprehensive article to read. Highly recommended http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, this was probably covered in Bob's thread, When a process like this is undertaken, a neutralizing process is required. When I bought phosphoric (muriatic) acid, (to clean my engine block out) the chemical company put " inhibitors" in the acid so that only the rust was attacked, and not the cast iron. Is it the same here? Is there a "neutralizing" process required here?

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

......When I bought phosphoric (muriatic) acid.....

I know this is a bit of a sidetrack but are you sure that phosphoric acid is related to muriatic acid? I have believed that muriatic acid is related to hydrochloric acid (a diluted form of hydrochloric acid?).
The difference might affect the chemistry (but not the concept) of neutralization.

[Lynn Eades]

You are right Grant. It is some time back that I found a very good article in an IMPCO (gas) manual, about cleaning out cast iron engine blocks (and how important it is to do so). Now that you mention it, it is Hydrachloric.
The Muriatic acid is a certain strength of it.
That cleared the confusion in my head. I now recall the Phosphoric (in Coke, and lots of other food) is for cleaning mild steel. If you put high tensile steel, cast iron or any non ferrous metals in it, it then makes everything else you put in it, dirty. Thanks Grant.

I have met old guys, that are way off the truth. I don't think they mean to be. It just happens as our brain cells die,..... Its a shame the ones that die, don't all come from the 90% we don't use.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi guys - when I finish electrolysis derusting I paint the metal with a dilute solution of this stuff. When dry it leave a white powder that I brush off, (mask required). This neutralises everything but etch priming must be done immediately as the red curse quickly starts.

Bob

[Lynn Eades]

Probably a good time to put it through the blasting cabinet after that (before the paint) Bob.

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

It just happens as our brain cells die,..... Its a shame the ones that die, don't all come from the 90% we don't use.

Is this a Kiwi thing??

[Lynn Eades]

Tony , (it seems, based on MLU stats, about 25% of Australians, are Tonys)
I'd be truly surprised, if you're were exempt!!!

[Private_collector]

Well Lynn, I can't speak for my other "Tony" bretheren, but earlier tonight I sat down and typed a long posting to send, on the topic of cleaning parts & soda blasting. After about 20min of typing & going back to make typo correction, I hit the wrong button and promptly erased the entire thing by refreshing the page! Demoralised sufficiently to not attempt to redo the bloody thing.

I'm obviously not immune!

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, My full commiserations, all the more if you "hunt and peck" like me.
Good to know it's not just a Kiwi thing. (this is the cruel and manipulative bit) We should get back on track. What did we miss?

[Private_collector]

Front axle reassembly has started today. Wish it would do so without my involvement! I had hoped to have the whole lot back together, but what a hope I had. Not even close.

In this photo, you should be able to see the new felt seal in the steering joint. They've been soaking in oil for a couple of weeks now, and are a snug fit. No grease should be sneaking past this stuff! Turning the steering ends needs a little more effort since these were installed.

The fresh brake junction block arrived last Thursday, with some other small brake bits & new intake valve seals. It came from MacsAuto. Now I need to start thinking about where I put the new brake lines I made some months ago! They're in the workshop somewhere.

I only had enough time to fit one of the brake backing plates. A test fit of the brake hose shows it will fit just fine. I was worried that the length I asked for was incorrect, but looks to be Ok. The primed bolt standing wonky of the steering arm is just sitting there. I had previously forgotten to strip and clean this bolt, so it's drying insitu.


I had originally bought 2 tubes of grease. One for each side. Once again, what an under estimation. I sunk a whole tube full in each CV joint space, and i'm still not happy that there is enough. Fortunately I got cautious while in town Saturday, and bought an additional 2 tubes. Should have purchased a new grease gun, because the bloody thing wont pump properly as of about 1700hrs. I called stumps about this time, and downed tools. Try again next weekend!

[Private_collector]

More work done on the engine strip down.

Pistons are out.They couldn't be removed without damaging several. Then found that they are unusable anyway, from sitting in cylinders that are severely rusted below the piston tops. Worse still in lower bore. Piston rods will not be reused, due to the force I had to subject them to while removing. No big deal there. I have a brand new set of 8BA rods that arrived on Friday (I saw this issue coming). New pistons & rings were planned originally so no great loss there. Resleeving is no longer desired, it's mandatory. I won't be overboring these walls. Besides, thinner walls means higher running temperatures, so thats not a good idea.

Crankshaft looks good. The mains aren't worn at all. Some wear at piston rod points and these will be ground down to 1.990", to accomodate the new con rods and bearings.

Cleaning of the sump is a most disgusting job. In the progress of which, I found 2x rust holes on one side, a small external crack (easily fixed) and a mysterious cluster of three small holes towards the front of the pan gasket surface. These have been deliberately drilled but seem to have no beneficial purpose! I'll get a friend to braze the rust-outs and I will weld the holes and the crack, myself.

This little nugget was unexpected. Finding something like this is very disappointing. On this engine, i'm now used to it! When I bought it, it was supposed to have been a 'good' engine to rebuild! Hmmmm. Well, it's mine now, so I will persist. If I discard this one, it'll just go into the scrap, and that would be a shame. After removing all the crud, the idler gear and cam gear are both rooted, but both are available.

Can't wait to get the block crack cleaned & crack tested. It better bloody well pass! With all the new parts in it, this should be just about factory frest.

[Private_collector]

Can anyone help me out with answers to the following questions, please?
The questions relate to interchangability of early VS 8BA parts in general.

1) Are 8BA and earlier 24 bolt heads interchangable in relation to functional use?

2) Are 8BA and earlier front-mount water pumps interchangable between the two blocks?

3) Are oil pans different between 8BA and 99A or 59A?

4) What are the reasons why an 8BA block would not fit in a CMP? More to the point, an 8BA block fitted with all possible external parts of correct engine type!

I have come across someone selling a French made Flathead V8 block which may be better proposition to having work done on my old one. These blocks have some of the characteristics of 8BA, some of the features of earlier 24 bolt blocks, and some features which are unique to the French made ones, such as thicker main bearing caps and added strength and thickness of block webbing.

Any assistance with the above points, or other info on the French block suitability, will be very much appreciated!

[David Dunlop]

Just a thought, Tony. If you have a pharmacy or chemists handy, try checking with them to see if they can get the type of soda you need. I needed some sulphur for the garden once and found it a lot cheaper getting it at a local pharmacy than the gardening centres in the area.

David

[T Creighton]

Originally Posted by Private_collector

Can anyone help me out with answers to the following questions, please?
The questions relate to interchangability of early VS 8BA parts in general.

1) Are 8BA and earlier 24 bolt heads interchangable in relation to functional use?

2) Are 8BA and earlier front-mount water pumps interchangable between the two blocks?

3) Are oil pans different between 8BA and 99A or 59A?

4) What are the reasons why an 8BA block would not fit in a CMP? More to the point, an 8BA block fitted with all possible external parts of correct engine type!

I have come across someone selling a French made Flathead V8 block which may be better proposition to having work done on my old one. These blocks have some of the characteristics of 8BA, some of the features of earlier 24 bolt blocks, and some features which are unique to the French made ones, such as thicker main bearing caps and added strength and thickness of block webbing.

Any assistance with the above points, or other info on the French block suitability, will be very much appreciated!

Hi Tony,
It looks like a new phase in your restoration is beginning. Very interesting. Good luck with it all.
There is a lot of stuff on the web about all this but you could start with

http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm
and in particular
http://www.flatheadv8.org/bellhousing.pdf

also AJV8's catalogue gives a good comparison of part no's between the early and later flatheads.

Regards, Terry

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, go to Vanpelt sales. There is a lot of info on their site.
Yes you can use an 8BA block crank and rods, and dress it with the earlier bits.
Yes water pumps bolt on.
You could go on the Ford Barn forum as well. Good info on distributors, carbs etc, along with the mechanicals.

Hi Terry.

[Private_collector]

Hi Guys, and thanks for the responses.

David, I did manage to get a couple of bags of washing soda, a couple of weeks ago. Well, to be entirely honest, my wife actually looked and bought it for me, from the local IGA supermarket. From memory, I believe it is Lectric brand. There's a little coincidence. It'll have a 'lectric' current through it some time soon, I hope.

Terry, the new phase you speak of will certainly be interesting, that's for sure. At least for me, as I stumble my way through all the pitfalls and rewards of engine rebuilding. One of the percularities (or however its spelt!) of the French blocks is that it doesnt have the seperate, bolt-on, bell housing. It retains the housing attached to the block, like the earlier engines. I believe the oil pan will require minor modification to clear the extra meaty main bearing caps & studs. It's a real hybrid of improvements on earlier blocks while retaining some of the earlier characteristics and ability to accept external add-ons. Every source I have been looking at holds these in high esteem. All going well, I will be able to evaluate this for myself, as I hope to get to inspect the block in person in next couple of weeks.

Lynn, I have looked at Vanpelt since your post, and am happy that this will suit my needs very well. At a whopping $3500, this block will eliminate a lot of the uncertainty associated with having work done on my old lump. The price is actually no dearer than the initial cost of these blocks if purchased in USA. Then the shipping costs would make the deal almost ridiculous, so the same price at my own doorstep is quite good. Price also includes a set of pistons & piston pins, so that is a little bonus the seller is providing without cost. I'm planning to take a number of the external parts with me when I go to look in person, and check the ability to attach them. Will also take the 'mike' and measure clearances for parts not yet purchased.

All in all, it's going to be a fun project. Even if I don't have any money left in the kitty for other immediate buys. Kitty will be a little constipated for a while.

Here's a number of pics of the item in question.