anti-aircraft CENTAUR

[luc désormeaux]

Hi guys,
I read in Jean Bouchery book " The canadian soldier" that Canada used a couples of CENTAUR with the twin AA barrel. Is this right? Was it in 1944 or 1945?
thanks

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hi Luc, I have ordered this file and will get back to you when I have had a chance to review it.

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 14640
Serial : 5960 , Access code: 90
File Title: 1st Centaur Battery, Royal Canadian Artillery
Outside Dates: 1944/08-1944/09

[John McGillivray]

I think that the version of the Centaur that Luc is refering to is the AA vervion which mounted twin 20mm Polsten cannon. The Centaur Bty, which servied as part of the 6th Airborne Div. used the Centaur IV close support tank with the 95mm howitzer.

Also I think that Jean Bouchery is mistaken about the Canadians using the Centaur AA Mk II. All other references that I have seen points to the Canadians using the Crusader III AA Mk II in their armoured units.

You should note that Jean Bouchery's book contains many errors, so use it with caution.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Luc;

1.) This is taken from the Equipment State, Canadian Units in First Canadian Army June 1944, for the start of operations in Normandy (6 Jun onwards).

Source: Appendix "B" to CMHQ Report No. 141 - Situation of the Canadian Military Forces Overseas, Progress in Equipment, Jan-Dec 44.

A.A. (Crusader):

Establishment: 48
Held: 16
Deficiencies: 32 (a) - these deficiencies were in formations which did not see action until a month later. The deficiencies were made up during June.

There is no CENTAUR AA equipment mentioned/listed has being held by Cdn units.

2). This is taken from the Equipment State, Canadian Army in North-West Europe December 1944, as at 31 December, 1944.

Source: Appendix "C" to CMHQ Report No. 141 - Situation of the Canadian Military Forces Overseas, Progress in Equipment, Jan-Dec 44.

A.A. (Crusader III):

Establishment: Nil
Held: 13
Deficiencies: Surplus (which are the 13 held)

Again, there is no CENTAUR AA equipment mentioned/listed has being held by Cdn units.

John is right, "Jean Bouchery's book contains many errors, so use it with caution".

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Mark and John,
Although short-lived there MUST have been some Centaurs in the Cdn Army Overseas because a war diary exists (see my earlier post in this thread). Once I get to review this file we will know if it was just a training unit or if it was operationally deployed.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
Mark and John,
Although short-lived there MUST have been some Centaurs in the Cdn Army Overseas because a war diary exists (see my earlier post in this thread). Once I get to review this file we will know if it was just a training unit or if it was operationally deployed.

Clive;

Yes your right, there was a Cdn 95mm How. Centaur Bty operated for a short time by members of the R.C.A. in support of 6th (B) AB Div. A while ago, it was either on this forum or Michael's forum, I posted quite a bit of info regarding the Cdn Centaur Bty, off hand I just can't remember which forum it was on, it may even have been on the Old MLU Forum. If I can't find it, I'll repost my notes on this forum for you.

What Luc is referring to, is not the 95mm How. Centaur equipment, but to the Centaur AA MkII equipment. I've attached a picture of each:

top photo - 95mm How. Centaur equipment
bottom photo - Centaur AA MkII equipment

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive;

Here is the link to the thread regarding the 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A., and here are my notes:

Notes on 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A.:

- 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, RCA, was formed on 6 Aug 1944 and disbanded on 30 Aug 1944

- Under command of Major D.W.M. Cooper, R.C.A.

- Took over the Battery equipment of 'X' Armoured Battery, R.A., 6th (British) Airborne Divisional Artillery

- Organization: - Headquarters and 3x Troops

- Each Troop had: 1x Sherman O.P. tank and 4x 95mm Centaur Mk IV

- Total: 3x Sherman O.P.s and 12x 95mm Centaur Mk IV

- Personnel to man the Battery were drawn from No. 12 Canadian Base Reinforcement Battalion and by attachment to the battery of certain Royal Artillery personnel from 'X' Armd Bty (1x Capt, 15x O.R.'s, R. Sigs and 1x R.E.M.E. Fitter (Gun))

- First Action - 17 August 1944

- Battery reorganized on 28 August 1944 from a 12 gun battery to a six gun battery, with the personnel of the six gun crews being returned to the reinforcement stream

- Battery received orders on 29 August 1944 to disband effective 30 August 1944

- The Centaurs were handed over to 259th (British) Armoured Delivery Squadron and it's remaining personnel were returned to the reinforcement stream

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive;

I've found my updated notes regarding 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A., they fill in the blanks of my earlier notes and contain a bit more information on the life of the Bty. I'll post them here tomorrow.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

I think that the Centaur IVs that the Centaur Bty was using were the same vehicles that the Royal Marine Armoured Support Regiment landed with on D-Day. The Marines were withdrawn from Normandy sometime in mid June leaving behind their tanks. These then went to the Royal Artillery, and later the Royal Canadian Artillery as part of the 6th airborne Div.

Dose anyone know if the Royal Marine markings were painted over or replaced with 6th Airborne markings? If so, do you know the unit number?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
I think that the Centaur IVs that the Centaur Bty was using were the same vehicles that the Royal Marine Armoured Support Regiment landed with on D-Day. The Marines were withdrawn from Normandy sometime in mid June leaving behind their tanks. These then went to the Royal Artillery, and later the Royal Canadian Artillery as part of the 6th airborne Div.

Dose anyone know if the Royal Marine markings were painted over or replaced with 6th Airborne markings? If so, do you know the unit number?

John;

Yes indeed, when the ad hoc "X" Armoured Battery, R.A. was formed, their twelve 95mm Centaur Mk IV and three Sherman O.P./Command tanks, were drawn from those turned in by the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group (1st and 2nd Armoured Support Regiment's, R.M. and the 5th Independent Armoured Support Battery, R.M.). "X" Armoured Battery, R.A. was formed approx 24 June, 1944, to supplement the 6th (British) Airborne Division's 53rd (Worcestershire Yeomanry) Airlanding Light Regiment, R.A., who were equipped themselves with the 75mm pack howitzer. This being said, I've read one source that says that "X" Armd Bty was a bty of the 53rd Airlanding Lt Regt, which would mean, that if they did bother to paint the fmn or AoS onto the Bty's vehicles. than they would have carried the AB Div fmn sign and the white 46 on Red over Blue AoS marking of the 53rd. But on the other hand, I've seen another source that says that "X" Bty came under the command of the Divisional CRA, which if this were the case and if they did carry the fmn sign and AoS marking, than again, the fmn sign would be that of AB Div and the AoS marking would have been a white 40 on Red over Blue of HQ Div RA.

To answer the second part of your question, 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A., took over the vehicles of "X" Armoured Battery, R.A. on 6 August, 1944, has for markings, it is the same has I mentioned above, if any at all, it would depend on where they fit into the Div Orbat and under who's command and control they came under.

There is actually very little information available on either "X" Armd Bty, RA or on 1st Cdn Centaur Bty, RCA. Anyways, hope this helps.

Cheers

John;

I forget to mention that the personnel for "X" Armoured Battery, R.A. were drawn from the R.A. and R.A.C. (drivers) reinforcement streams. Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have this photo in my files. Can anybody identify the Unit?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive/John;

Some additional notes on the 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A.

- because of the fire support provided by "X" Armd Bty and the vast amount of ammunition that was at hand for the 95mm How., First Canadian Army decided to keep the guns and man them with Canadian gunners after the disbandment of "X" Armd Bty, who were disbanded due to their personnel, who had come from the reinforcement stream to begin with, being needed has reinforcements for R.A. units.

- "paper" establishment upon formation was: 11 officers and 103 other ranks, with an allotment of twelve 95mm How. Centaurs, three Sherman tanks O.P. and the requisite assortment of vehicles (Source: C.M.H.Q. Adm. Order No. 139, dated 18 Aug 44)

- approved strength by First Canadian Army was 60 all ranks

- three Instructors in Gunnery were rushed over to Normandy from the Canadian School of Artillery to help the gunners in mastering the workings of the 95mm How.

- most of the Battery's time was spent supporting the 3rd Parachute Brigade (of which 1 Can Para was a part), 6th (Br) AB Div.

- their role within 6th (Br) AB Div was: (a) maximum harassing fire on the enemy's administrative machine. (b) vigorous and immediate retaliatory fire

- due to its short range, the 95mm How. Centaur had to be deployed well forward, the result being heavy personnel and equipment casualties for the unit. At one point, it was reduced to a fighting vehicle strength of only two Centaurs and one Sherman, and a Cromwell borrowed from a Recce Regt.

- 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A. were disbanded due to the simple fact, that the 6th (Br) AB Div was withdrawn from under command of I (Br) Corps (First Cdn Army) and the services of the Battery were no longer required

Little, by little, we should be able to put their story together.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
Hi Luc, I have ordered this file and will get back to you when I have had a chance to review it.

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 14640
Serial : 5960 , Access code: 90
File Title: 1st Centaur Battery, Royal Canadian Artillery
Outside Dates: 1944/08-1944/09

Clive;

Another source of information regarding the 95mm How. Centaur Battery (both "X" and 1st Cdn) may be the volume of the history of the Royal Regiment of Artillery dealing with North-West Europe, which I believe is to be published this year, or early next year.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
I have this photo in my files. Can anybody identify the Unit?

Clive;

1st Polish Armoured Divisional Headquarters and if I'm not mistaken, it's the Div Commander's tank, I'll check my notes and get back to you. Clive, it looks like a picture of a model rather than an actual tank?

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
I have this photo in my files. Can anybody identify the Unit?

Clive;

I was right, it's a photo/or model of 1st Polish Armoured Division's Commander, General Maczek's Cromwell 'Charger' tank (Normandy, 1944)

Cheers

Originally posted by servicepub
I have this photo in my files. Can anybody identify the Unit?

Hey ... PERFECT!

Send one to my place. I need a ride to and from
the corner store. Thanks. (scarey neighborhood)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive/John;

The specifications for the Centaur MkIV 95mm How.
Note: Only 80 were built.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive/John;

Thought you would find this of interest, the organization of an Armoured Support Regiment, Royal Marines, equipped with the 95mm How. Centaur MkIV.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Clive/John;

Re: My additional notes on the 1st Canadian Centaur Battery, R.C.A.

I think this is the variant of Cromwell that is referred to when it says "and a Cromwell borrowed from a Recce Regt", the Cromwell MkVI Close Support Variant with 95mm How.

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

"1st Polish Armoured Divisional Headquarters and if I'm not mistaken, it's the Div Commander's tank, I'll check my notes and get back to you. Clive, it looks like a picture of a model rather than an actual tank?"

All I have is a photo with a National Museums of Canada stamp on the reverse. It may well be a model which would explain the amateurish application of the tac signs. I wasn't sure if this was also a Centaur which is why I posted it here.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
"1st Polish Armoured Divisional Headquarters and if I'm not mistaken, it's the Div Commander's tank, I'll check my notes and get back to you. Clive, it looks like a picture of a model rather than an actual tank?"

All I have is a photo with a National Museums of Canada stamp on the reverse. It may well be a model which would explain the amateurish application of the tac signs. I wasn't sure if this was also a Centaur which is why I posted it here.

Clive;

The 1st Polish Armoured Division served under command of First Canadian Army throughout most of the campaign in North-West Europe, 1944-45, so I'm not surprised that you'd find photos in the NAC/National Museums of Canada. I've attached below an artist's impression of Gen. Maczek's Cromwell and a close up of the 1st Polish Armd Div's formation sign below. I have a picture of Maczek's Cromwell, I just have to find it.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Here is a photo of Gen. Stanislaw Maczek Cromwell, from the Concord book “D-Day Tank warfare” It is a Cromwell Command/OP version fitted with a dummy gun and extra radio equipment. The name “Hala” was added sometime after this photo was taken.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Here is a photo of Gen. Stanislaw Maczek Cromwell, from the Concord book “D-Day Tank warfare” It is a Cromwell Command/OP version fitted with a dummy gun and extra radio equipment. The name “Hala” was added sometime after this photo was taken.

Thanks John; still can't find the picture I have of Maczek's Cromwell.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Here is a photo of a Centaur IV.

[John McGillivray]

One More.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Here is a photo of a Centaur IV.

John, did you notice that the Centaur in the forground does'nt seem to have any AoS marking (it would have been under the name, which I think is SEAWOLF). These are from the Armoured Support Group, Royal Marines.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Final photo of the Sherman command tank.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Final photo of the Sherman command tank.

John, you can just see the AoS marking for the 1st Armoured Support Regiment, R.M., just to the left rear of the driver's hatch. Also, the Sherman's name "FOX", identifies it has belonging to "F" Troop, 2nd Battery, 1st Armd Support Regt., R.M.

Also, in the photo of the line of Centaur IV's, the first one is named "SEAWOLF", which identifies it has a Centaur of "S" Troop, 5th Independent Armoured Support Battery, R.M.

Great photos John.

Cheers

[luc désormeaux]

Hi guys,
These are great info about the 95mm Centaur.About the AA Centaur, can i assume, as per your info, that canadian never use it ??

[kevinT]

I have T.185082 as "Hood" and belonging to H troop, 2nd Independent Batt, RMASG.
Cheers
Kevin