CS8 prototype ?

[Mike Kelly]

Can anyone of you erudite guys ID this vehicle , the pic was emailed to me with a query about the trucks parentage .

It appears to have MCC like feel to it ? It's dated 1941 , the Z census number is very low with 5 digits .

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly


It appears to have MCC like feel to it ? It's dated 1941 , the Z census number is very low with 5 digits .

Mike,

It is a Morris Commercial, I have seen this photo on here before and another in a book which is not to hand at the moment. At first glance the census number looks like Z24845, but this computes to an Austin ambulance, so tried Z34845 and that does come up as a MCC, Lorry, 15 cwt 4x2 GS and Winch versions, Contract No. V2695, Z34826 to Z34942.

As for rating, in a recent thread, re. motorcycles, there was a theory that early census numbers, used the first two digits to indicate the year, I am not wholly convinced, but if so, this would make the Morris, 1934, which could be about right?

[Rich Payne]

Hello Mike and Richard, I've got to put my hands up to this one. It was me who posted it before and who mailed it to Mike.

I 'm sure that it is Morris Commercial as the forum suggested but I'm just a bit niggled that I can't find a picture and confirmation anywhere of exactly which model.

I have mailed Mortons Publications who now hold the photo archives from "Motor Cycle" where the original appeared in the hope that I can obtain a better print because I think that I can see the MC badge on the rad. It's a nice picture anyway and I will be happy counting rivets on the 16H whatever

Rich.

[Richard Farrant]

Mike and Rich,

I have a copy of Military Vehicle Pamphlet No.6 Morris CS8 and C4, by Mike Conniford. There is a factory shot of a winch equipped chassis, with bonnet, bulkhead and front wings, definitely the same bonnet. Photo is not good enough to scan and is tken from the side. Text say that CS8 wasintroduced in 1935, with a number of variations in bonnet and mudguard design, until it was finalised.

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Richard, that makes sense.

What a shame that these early variations don't seem to be properly documented anywhere.

Rich.

[Mike Kelly]

I think we have got this one nailed down then .

What I find rather confusing is , if that pic is circa 1941 , what is a 1935 prototype or pre production car doing on active service in 1941 . You would think it would have been scrapped or driven into the ground by then.

Richard . I also have a copy of Mike Connifords profile , I see the pic you mentioned and the winch mounted amidships , that's a odd place to mount a winch I must say .

I have a very good article on CS8's ( appeared in Classic and Vintage Commercials June 1996 part 1 ) written by the tank man David Fletcher . He states the very first CS8 concept car was delivered to MEE Farnborough for trials during 1934 .

If anyone wants a copy of the article , I can email it .

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

The CS8T chassis with mid mounted winch . The early vehicles used many standard commercial parts like gearboxes and engines and worm drive axles . According to the Fletcher article .

Mike

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am no expert but wondered if it indeed was a Series I? This is from VINTAGE ROADSCENE Issue 90, taken from the 1936 WD Report:

Morris-Commercial C.S.8.T. Series III, 15-cwt four-wheeled truck
The C.S.8T Series III was a standard WD truck (one ton useful load) developed from the Series I and II referred to in the 1935 Report. As the design was approaching finality a full description appeared in the 1936 Report. The chassis was constructed as far as possible from standard commercial components, and had a standard wood body. The engine was a six-cylinder 3,485 litre petrol engine developing 63.5 bhp and maximum torque of 1m740 lbs/inches, driving through a four-speed gearbox to a bevel drive rear axle. The tyres were 9.00-16 cross-country tread and combined with a 3.2-ton gvw implied a tractive effort of 1,250 lbs/ton and power:weight ratio of 19.5 bhp/ton. Average road fuel consumption was 11.5 mpg; tank capacity was 22 gallons. Trials commenced at Farnborough with a WD vehicle and then further tests in North Wales and Farnborough with two randomly-selected WD vehicles from a then-current contract. The production models’ successful reliability and performance equalled the pilot model. Experience with Series I and II trucks in Egypt indicated a mere 1,600 miles life of the engine and so Vokes C.5 air cleaners were fitted consequently, with WD-pattern air cleaners on subsequent production. Dustproof carburettors replaced the original type and crankcase oil fillers were connected to the carburettor intake. A few cases of front axle failure in Egypt were rectified by a replacement stronger pattern. Trials had been conducted in 1936 with a 250-gallon Thompson Bros. (Bilston) Ltd petrol tank and 190-gallon water tank. In both cases the rear axle exceeded that which occurred with the normal one-ton load and the frame members were damaged through contact with the rear axle casing. Further running was carried out with stronger and progressive rear springs and double-actimng shock absorbers. During the year trials took place by Fisher & Ludlow Ltd steel body on a truck chassis, which proved satisfactory but the proposal, with justification, raised questions of wartime steel supply and the facilities for field repair, which were then under investigation. During the year contracts for 1,597 of these chassis were placed: 59 with drawbar gear for towing the 2-pounder anti-tank gun and 44 with cavalry portee bodies (Z 354970 to 355013 under contract V.2911).

I was sure a few moments ago that the Series II trucks had been sent to Egypt, but that may be totally wrong.

As to what the truck was doing in 1941, well it looks as though it was never sent to France, unless it was lucky of course and shipped back, and was with it seems plenty of other pre-war MCC trucks, used in service until....demob in 1944 as obsolete? Or even post-war?

Interesting about Mortons having some of the MOTOR CYCLE photos. I have been through 22,000 shots scanned from the COMMERCIAL MOTOR and MOTOR CYCLE archives, as well as some THE MOTOR and AUTOCAR ones, now owned by Chris Hodge Commercial. The MC magazine shots appear to be from the early days of Brooklands up to the Fifties with some military m/c shots including what I think are immediate pre-war ISDT and similar races in Germany, Switzerland, and UK. There are however very, very few military vehicle photos, and a handful of CMPs with just one post-war civvy rebuiold.

[Mike Kelly]

That is interesting reading David . Only 1600 miles and the engines were stuffed from Egyptian sand . They then put effort intto dustproofing the motor . Pity that none of these very early ones seem to have survived . Although a 1937 example I think lives at Shirrell Heath , it was a house wireless bodied CS8 , maybe the prototype .

Mike

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Morris-Commercial Leader four-wheeled lorries for two-ton military load

Type C.S.10/80
This was a standard 10ft 6ins-wheelbase Morris Commercial Cars Ltd (MCC) commercial transport vehicle and had been tested for the carriage of two-ton military loads. The chassis was modified as regards tyre equipment and by fitting a double-skinned cab roof for protection from the sun in tropical countries, a number of them being operated in Egypt. The six-cylinder 3.485 litre petrol engine developed 63.5 bhp and drove through a four-speed gearbox to a worm rear axle. The wooden standard construction body was suitable for two-ton military loads. Trials commenced at Farnborough in April 1936 with a WD vehicle and performance was deemed satisfactory, with exceptionally good cooling. One of the lorries was fitted with standard tread tyres and tested in North Wales with similar performance to the Farnborough testing. Trials were to be carried out with a three-ton military load. A contract for 61 vehicles had been placed for the Quarter-Master-General and 11 for the Department of the Master-General of the Ordnance.

This is also from the 1936 Report. Shows you that the experience gained in Egypt led to improved air filtration, and this obviously was of considerable benefit in due course.

[Rich Payne]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Interesting about Mortons having some of the MOTOR CYCLE photos. I have been through 22,000 shots scanned from the COMMERCIAL MOTOR and MOTOR CYCLE archives, as well as some THE MOTOR and AUTOCAR ones, now owned by Chris Hodge Commercial. The MC magazine shots appear to be from the early days of Brooklands up to the Fifties with some military m/c shots including what Ithink are immediate pre-war ISDT and similar races in Germany, Switzerland, and UK. There are however very, very few military vehicle photos, and a handful of CMPs with just one post-war civvy rebuiold.

Thanks for clearing up the identification of the Morris here.


I 've now been able to confirm that Mortons hold a period print of the original image and will be ordering a copy. Is Chris Hodge's organisation Stilltime ? Based on the vehicles in their post-war photographs, they have images from "Motor Cycling" - the 'Green 'un' - deadly rivals of "Motor Cycle" - the Blue 'un.

"Motor Cycle"s archives passed to "Classic Motorcycle" which was a rival to "Classic Bike" and was subsequently bought up by EMAP, owners of the latter who then sold the title to Mortons with the archive more or less intact. During the war years, they both printed large numbers of official photographs, sometimes with four-wheeled vehicles in the background. I'll keep my eyes open.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Rich, I have just e mailed someone about the archives. I know that there are hundreds of SCANNED photos and I have been through 22,000 of them. There are old m/c shots from the pre-war era, as well as post-war, and that includes Cycle & Motorcycle Shows. I am certain that there are THE MOTOR-CYCLE photos in there as there are shots of delivert vans for that title, and it was published by Iliffe & Sons. There are also MOTOR CYCLING van photos, published by Temple Press in London so it's possible that there are in fact old photos from both titles! I know that there are COMMERCIAL MOTOR photos, as well as some THE MOTOR, AUTOCAR, CAGE BIRDS, and odd stuff such as office equipment mags.

It was in the CM photos that I found some military vehicle photos, and that includes WW1 and WW11, plus early Thirties.

[Les Freathy]

Guess these two photos prove more than a few found there way to the middle east, the first truck in the lower photo CMM271 has the military reg L341367
Les

[Les Freathy]

Morris CMM601 Z35784

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another early CS8 in the desert.

Source: More Morris Stuff

[Mike Kelly]

Hanno

That appears to be a Mk 111 from around 1937-38 . The GS body on it has odd sized boards . From around 39 they seemed to have used 3.5" boards as the standard size - the boards had a bevelled edge on the top side for some reason.

Does anyone know he date they went over to the military style radiator protector , rather than using the civilian style bumber ? They played around with the front wings a bit too , some of them have a flat top . My earliest CS8 is a 1939 example , it was a bush fire truck post war and some kind soul has welded the spring hangers onto the chassis ..... it looks like the cocky s..t welding company did it . Just about everything on the truck is worn out , the steering tie rod ends have been welded on as has the steering drop arm .

The brass aero screen mounts tend to break off too .

Mike

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

They used the flat mudguards on the 1939-on C8/P, Predictors and similar ...