Canadian War Museum's M4A4 "Forceful III"
 

Hello,
Now that this tank is inside the Museum and "out of the elements", I am wondering if the interior of this GGFG Sherman is now accessible to Museum staff? If so, does anyone know how complete the interior is? I'm either looking for some good interior photos of this vehicle or interior photos of one of the operational Sherman M4A4s over in Holland. My ultimate goal is to determine the shape of the shelf supporting the 19 set and the general layout of interior fittings around it.
My current project consists of replicating the rear 30" of a Sherman turret bustle for my operational 19 set. The M4A4 Sherman is a personal choice for me since it was issued to my uncle's tank regiment, the Lord Strathcona's Horse (R.C.), and he commanded one for nine months prior to commanding a Firefly. My set is fully complete with all control units, cables and aerials, all I need is an accurate picture of the placement of each component. Pictures will eventually follow if I'm successful.
I look forward to hearing your responses!
Thx, Patrick

Hi Patrick,
The radio shelf and 19 set installation is nominally exactly the same on any 19 set equipped Sherman that has a 'low bustle' turret (like a M4A4) except a 17pdr equipped Firefly of course. This includes the Canadian Grizzly. The turret setup in a Ram II is very similar but not identical.

When I say 'nominally' it is because there are random differences from one vehicle to another but not following from deliberate design changes but from the whims of the guy installing it or the crew using it. This gives you some latitude which might be handy !

Hope this helps, David

I got this diagram from Michel Perrier last week when I bought my 19 set for my Sherman...maybe this will help...sure is a lot different mounting than the US radio set

Attachment 80067

Sherman firefly (photo courtesy of www.theshermantank.com)

Attachment 80068

Standard 75mm turret (photo courtesy of www.theshermantank.com)

Attachment 80069

That installation diagram is a 76mm and a little different to a Sherman V. The last photo is mine.

Ahhhh! So is that the same installation in yours that Patrick is after? And how do you keep it so damn clean in there? As an aside, was the filming of Fury tough on it?

John

Yes, I'll take some pics for Patrick. It has never been that clean inside since I took that picture and yes, Fury was a little tough, though apart from a noisy starter Bendix, she sailed through all the filming.

Very nice...again off topic but do you have any pictures from the production?

Not many, they like to control photography for the official stills man! I do have a few from the three weeks before principal photography and a couple from the set during filming.

Forcefull III
 

Although Forceful III is relatively complete, we didn't have much time to conserve or restore the interior of this tank before having to install it into the new building. I will look around to see if any detailed photos of the interior were taken and show anything worthwhile.

Jim Whitham
Director of Collections
Canadian War Museum

A big thank you for all those who have contributed posts so far. I am especially pleased to hear that pictures may be forthcoming from Adrian Barrell's M4A4 and possibly from the CWM. Thanks Adrian and Jim! The goal is to replicate an installation in an M4A4 as close as possible and knowing the general placement of kit stored around the 19 set (case spare parts No.5c, binocular case, spare vision block, etc. ) would achieve an acceptable level of accuracy. As an example, I'd like to determine whether the spare tubes box was mounted to the shelf holding the WS19 or on a bracket attached to the side of the turret, and what means held it in place. The shelf's actual shape is also important as the shelf for the 76mm Sherman had a forward rolled edge.
Cheers, Patrick

As David pointed out, there are 'official' positions for everything and then what actually happened. I'll take some pics this weekend.

Radio Location
 

The official positions should always be the solution, anything else is an excuse for 'made up'.

Indeed, but I've looked in a lot of Shermans that have never been out of military ownership and they varied quite a bit from the official situation. As long as you copy what was there, there is nothing wrong with it.

Made up by the actual guys who did it in service is not made up.

Made up by restorers or re-enactors is made up.

The danger is that perhaps only one guy ever did it in the military, a prominent photo of it ends up in the history book, and restorers claim it was commonly done that way.

For instance: large locker from the back of the universal carrier gets moved to the outer front of the carrier to make more room for crew: appears to have been done fairly regularly as evidenced in numerous photos. Not factory, nor approved, but done and I would suggest not incorrect for a restoration.

How about the crooked invasion star on Canadian vehicles? Was this fairly rare or commonly done? Would it be incorrect to put it on mis-angled?

Exactly. :salute:

One could argue it was as per instructions!! :D

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...0&d=1129679114

Patrick

I may be able to help with some of the turret interior fixtures for your project, lights, ventilator ducting, possibly bino case holder, oddment box etc

Regards
John

Here are a few photos of Strathcona's Shermans
 

Just for reference as to what they looked on the outside.

Cheers

Anthony

Ex-Strathcona

That top row center picture is great, I have never seen that one before...I am really a fan of the extra track link armor...very unique look you never see on a restored tank

John

Tray illustration
 

Tray illustration for the No. 19 set carrier set No.21, not sure if that helps.

Anthony

I went to school at Lisgar back in the 80-90's, and it'd be neat to see inside Forceful, who I walked past every day on the way to school!

There used to be a good walk-around of "Forceful (III)" on the web somewhere, from the time that the tank was still outside......I think it was on Dana Nield's website, but that has been offline for some years. I tried wayback machine, but no luck.....does anyone know if these walk-around pictures are still available on the net anywhere? All the pictures I have found so far only show the tank from ground level, while the walkaround I remember also had good pictures of turret and hatch details.....details that I am hoping to use as reference of a Sherman V DD scale model that also has the turret without pistol port, just like on Forceful.

Hi Alex,

I recall seeing such a set of photos.

I have searched but cannot find much more than https://www.flickr.com/photos/ottcan...th/4096492486/ and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ian_War_Museum

Sherman V CT228619 Forceful III
 

"Forceful III, went to Vimy House on 20 May 2004 for repainting; previously on display at Cartier Square Drill Hall in Ottawa from 1986, the tank was refurbished and put on display on 15 Oct 2005 at the Canadian War Museum. The tank had previously been the personal mount of Major (later Lieutenant Colonel) E.M. Smith, DSO, ED and had seen action with the 21st Canadian Armoured Regiment (Governor General's Foot Guards) throughout North-West Europe, being the only tank of the sixty-nine originals issued to the Regiment. The tank landed in France on 25 Jul 1944, when Major Smith was Officer Commanding No. 3 Squadron (by tradition the GGFG used numbers rather than letters to identify sub-units). Smith was promoted to command the regiment in Aug 1944. The regiment had intended for the tank to be displayed at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, a proposal rejected by Mayor Charlotte Whitton, and the tank went to Camp Borden instead."
Source: https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...hermantank.htm


Wartime photo: "Marty Joiner, pictured top row, second from right, is pictured with his company along with their tank, Forceful III, during the Second World War."
Attachment 129221
Source: https://omniway.ca/trip-to-war-museu...with-ww2-tank/


Period picture, likely dating back to the 1950s or so. At Camp Borden?
Attachment 129217


When on display outside at the Cartier Square Drill Hall in Ottawa (1986-2004):
Attachment 129218


As it stands today (since 2005) at the CWM: "M4A4(75) Sherman V Medium Tank with 75-mm gun, (Serial No. 21424), built by Chrysler, R/N 3021730, (WD No. CT-228619), 51, 30, (Serial No. 21424), “Forceful III”, previously on display at Cartier Square Drill Hall, 21st Canadian Armoured Regiment (Governor General’s Foot Guards)."
Attachment 129222
Source: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...-museum-part-1

Hi Hanno; yes, I found the same. I did contact Dana through the MLU messenger, but I am not sure if the message came through.

I did however find the info I was looking for by visiting some of the IJssellinie Sherman turrets here in Holland.