Hope this is the place....If not Hanno please redirect.

Where can i get paint chips/information on correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles .

is there a book , a chart ...something I can use to accurately repaint my FGT and Stuart.

https://www.armyjeepparts.net/t-GCI_paint.aspx

http://www.tm9ordnance.com/products.asp

WW2 Australian Army colours
 

Hi Gina,

This is information I along with many others have sought for a long time too. There would be Australian standards of that era but without the relevant colour chips, that haven't faded it is all a lot of speculation.

Paint colours can always be room for interpretation and contention. Ask any model builder.

I have painted my F15A with current Australian Army Olive Drab which can be obtained from any Wattyl Trade depot but usually has to be ordered in. It is only available in 20 Lt drums but I decanted mine into 5 x 4 lt tins to preserve it and for convenience. It is a single pack alkyd enamel so easy to work with and clean up. It is semi-gloss too which again is not technically correct but I had painted some of my earlier parts with Croda Paints Australian Army lusterless Olive Drab which looked good but you only had to touch it to get a mark on it. In time the SG paint will loose some of its sheen anyway.

I have compared the Wattyl paint to patches of pristine paint on my vehicle where it was out of weather and sunlight and basically I believe the WW2 version was a bit more muddy brown in colour compared to the more greenish current olive drab.

If I was redoing my paint I would take a 4 lt can of the current colour to a paint shop with a sample of the original colour such as under the instrument panel or the voltage regulator panel and see if they could throw a bit of brown tint in it to more closely match the WW2 sample. Once the formula was established I would write it down for future use.

Although I know my truck's colour is not technically correct it looks reasonable and presentable. Even a WW2 veteran who drove CMP trucks in the war and has followed my restoration progress could not really shed any light in whether my trucks paint was "correct". He thought it looked "bloody good" and was glad someone was restoring one. Unfortunately like many he is no longer with us. At least by preserving these vehicles their legacy lives on.

Cheers,

Thanks Jacques that is really helpful.

I was thinking of doing the Stuart in straight olive drab and the blitz in camo.

I will need the camo colours for the blitz sometime this year .

There's a good series of books by Mike Starmer that cover wartime British colour schemes - would the same colours have been used by all Commonwealth countries?

The books cover the camo scheme for each theatre/period, and have paint chips in the back to colour match.

No: the paint colours used by Australia were unique. They are the Australian Standard Colour (ASC) and each was followed by a letter indicator. They are similar to the BSC colours that Mike S has studied and that are included in his books, but not the same.

The colour chart booklets were produced by the Standards Association of Australia. Surviving examples, especially in good condition, are rare to say the least.

Mike C

Thanks Mike

Mike Cecil has failed to add that he sorted out the main Aussie WW2 colours using Humbrol model paints.

For POST 1942 Aust service green use -
10 parts #150 – matt Forest Green
02 parts #100 – matt red brown
01 part #33 – matt black

Buy these small tins from a hobby shop and mix to the above formula then take your sample to a paint shop and they should be able to match it. I have the formula, also done by Mike Cecil for Light Stone, Earth and PRE 1942 colours as well if interested.

Again thanks to the dedication of Mike Cecil we can reproduce these original colours for our models as well as the real deal! :note:

post 1942 ASG on a 1/35 scale Aust. ambulance

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...tPattern03.jpg

Pre 1942 ASG and Earth on a 1941 Chev heavy recon wagon

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...avyRecon01.jpg

not forgetting that these models are also weathered! :)

They look fabooo

and many thanks for the formula. I will do the Stuart in that now to track down the two tone camo for the blitz.

The Stuart has the original American green under two layers of Australian paint and one layer of Australian Olive Drab ...circa 1969 ...that I applied way back in the mid seventies.

The Olive Drab I used was Ex Stock ADF .

Just from the picture of your models my Olive Drab is a lot darker than your Blitz.

This thread really says it all so far as colours are concerned

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=12627

The Khaki Green is Post 1942 green as mentioned above while the light stone formula is as follows

Humbrol paints again

8 parts #74 matt linen
1 part #26 matt Khaki

This gives a nice two tone cammo with the light stone being applied over the green.

Mike Cecil's formula again

Taa Cliff :)

Cliff,

I had forgotten all that! How many years ago was that? I don't remember actually coming up with a Humbrol-based formula, but I certainly remember having done a lot of work on paint colour matching back in the early-mid 90s when I was given a copy of the Standards Assoc booklet (very much pre-AWM days, by the way). Mike Starmer (UK) and I had quite a deal of communication about it at the time.

Actually, we should probably thank my long-suffering artist wife, Krystii Melaine for the matching: I'm hopeless at it.

I'll qualify all this by saying that, despite the reference to Khaki Green this, or Light Earth that, the actual shades of these varied, due to manufacturer/batch differences, 'treatment' (how much thinner or matting agent is used, how well it was mixed pre-application, etc) and use, including sun/weather, dust, mud exposure, etc. Hence, there is never anything definitive about the shades of the colours once applied.

But in the absence of anything else ..... it makes a fine starting point.

Mike C

Mike dare I say it you must be getting old :D. Yes these paint formula came from you a long time ago. I will in the near future try and match the different colours with acrylic based paint for my models but the initial work definately came from you. :cheers:

More Australian paint info.
 

I have attached an extract from APAS 0006, the current Australian Paint Approval Scheme. It is downloadable for those that are interested.

Of interest, the current Australian Army Olive Drab is taken to be US Federal Standards 595B, FS 34088.

I noted on a model paint cross reference site that Humbrol #150 Matt Forest Green is close in match to FS 34127. This is the base for Mike Cecil's WW2 colour.

I pulled out my 25 year old old Federal Standards 595A to have a look at the relevant chips. FS 34127 is there but FS 34088 was not in existence then.

I realize colour reproduction is nonexistent on a computer screen but have attached a macro photo of the 595A chips just for interest. These are only 1" x 1/2"
The closest colour chip to present day Australian Army olive drab in my old desk book is FS 34087. Federal Standards also supplies 3" x 5" chips which are used for actual paint manufacture or to anyone interested.

Hope you find this interesting.

Cheers

Hi Jaques, and Cliff,

Just back from Arizona hence the delayed response.

I've just been through my colours file, and note that many of the notations are dated in the early to mid-1990s. Cliff: can't find any reference to Humbrol colours, but I (ie Krystii) did go to the trouble of matching, as close as possible, the ASC colours to the US Federal Standard Color chart, based on the 1943 Standards Association chart.

Mike C

Hi Mike when these humbrol colour convertions were given to me I was told that you had done them. :)

Paint comparisons
 

Curiosity got the better of me so I have posted here a comparison of various Olive Drab/Bronze colours. Again, colours on screens cannot be relied upon for accuracy but it does show trends.

I do not profess this to be any type of definitive answer to WW2 Australian Army Olive drab but just an observation I present here for general interest.

The voltage regulator panel has been sitting in my shed a few years and today I removed the voltage regulator to view the colour underneath. It is probably the best sample area for being out of weather and direct sunlight as it is normally tucked up underneath the front cowl and has the voltage regulator sitting in that area. The only thing I did was wash the panel in a mild car wash detergent to remove light dirt .

The .303 bracket on the right is painted with current Wattyl Australian Army Olive Drab, FS 24088 semi gloss. The scrap steel on the left is painted with Colorbond Bronze Olive. The photo was taken in bright sunlight as can be seen.

Hope this proves interesting to Australian MLU Forum members.

Cheers

Cliff,

So be it! I don't mind taking the credit!!

Mike C

Blitz paint
 

I have been using Protec Lusterless Green over a brown primer and it looks ok compared to parts that I have found unweathered or NOS. When I bought my can from Protec in Moorabbin, who are no longer there, they said that it was a pretty good match, but might need a touch of khaki. I think that the red brown primer might bring out a brown tinge. ( works for me) The only thing with the Protec paint is that is a bit soft, and marks easily.
If you line up 10 blitz's and 10 carriers, you will have 20 different colours.

Eric
 

Sounds like we are using the same Protec paint. I have the 'barrier', code 1166.
Are you using the hardener with that? The hardener makes the finished product considerably more durable.

I've been meaning to ask your advice Tony - what are the relative merits of two-pack vs. enamel with hardener? I'm considering Light Stone matt camo so durability/stain resistance is a major issue. Light Stone is very pale and will no doubt pick up a lot of road grime, so it will need to stand up to regular washing. I never wash my white car but a FGT is a different matter!

Truck wash
 

Maybe you can build a truck wash into your new shed. It is challenging to wash the roof of a Gun Tractor.
I'm the same regarding cars, although I do wash mine about once a year.

Paint
 

The main problem of using matt and lusterless paint is well known, oil stains,
hand prints and fading. Your pride and joy soon looks like its been through a war...

The life of a matt or lusterless paint job can be extended for years by a simple top coat of satin clear.

2 Pack VS Enamel + hardener.
 

[QUOTE=Tony Wheeler;177951]what are the relative merits of two-pack vs. enamel with hardener? /QUOTE]

Great differences, with the genuine 2 Pack urethanes beating enamels hands down in durability to UV, abrasion, and impact resistance. Never once in my years of painting have I been asked to paint any vehicle with a 'flattened' urethane. It has always been the preference to use an enamel (often referred to as 'Jam'). In light of its properties, that may sound strange. Prior to recent experience, all efforts were made to achieve the highest gloss, not the least. And there lays the debate. Its all to do with the finish.

Remember when I first started painting my wheels? I had initially trialled a true 2 Pack, which needed a flattening base added to achieve the desired level of reduced gloss. I was told a certain percentage of flat base was required, then added that amount, and found it was still too glossy. Next coat, more base added, and less gloss, but still far too much. At a particular point I gave up trying. Those wheels are still almost high gloss..........on the insides only! I wasnt stupid enough to experiment on outside. Now, flattening base; if you have some, pour a dollop of it onto a surface and let it dry. You will notice it had turned to a white powdery stuff. Thats what is being added to your paint. Thats the cause of grease, oil, dirt, etc... soiling. Flattening base causes a trade off of your desired finish gain VS the loss of durability. This issue exists in all paint types. About now you are probably wondering where you answer is, yeah? Well, its more of a question of choices that decides which paint type is best for you.

Genuine 2 Pack paints.
The 2 Pack paints give a much better durability and long lasting gloss. Gloss obviously NOT desired so a flattening base gets used, thus removing a percentage of the benefit over enamel with hardener. 2 Pack paint is much more difficult to spray, and requires a designated, dust free environment. Though the finish may be almost flat (if you add enough base to the mix) dust nibs and oher contamination will show on the finish. Also the 2 Pack paints are extremely dangerous and the fumes from spraying will damage your lungs, without doubt. Top quality face mask is NOT optional. Much better paint. No question of that, but some of the advantages are lost with trying to achieve low gloss finish, environment it should ideally be applied in, or the ability and experience needed to get a high quality finish.

Enamel paints
Any automotive painter will tell you that enamel paint is inferior to urethanes. In fact, when I say 'urethanes' I refer to several forms of product, each with unique variations that would be difficult to discuss here. Now, the enamels. Much easier to spray, and particularly forgiving when in 'lustreless' or flat form. Still needs a flattening agent or base, regardless of whether its self mix or factory mixed (as mine is). Nowhere near the durability of 2 Pack, but this is much improved with the addition of hardener. An enamel with no hardener is just a sticky mess which takes ages to dry properly, has very bad resiliance to impact or abrasion, can be problematic to recoat in future (especially if using another brand or type of paint), and because it remains tacky for a lot longer.........more contaminants get stuck in th surface. Be warned, you will still need to wear a respirator mask for this paint. It doesnt give off cyanide though, which is airborne with urethanes. In my youthful 'invincible' years I sprayed both types without always botherong to wear a mask, and now suffer accordingly. Let my stupidity then serve as a warning to others. You will not get away unscathed!

My personal choice is the enamel + hardener option. Much easier to use and apply. Its fast drying, and good results can be achieved, even if sprayed outdoors. This has been proven to me on many occasions. I paint everything outside in the open, where the fumes can be dispersed (I still wear a mask though), and parts can be handled gently within a few hours. The 2 Packs really need a heated spray booth for drying correctly. Check through my posts where I have painted something in the morning, then put the parts together later in the day, without damaging the painted surface.

All that is good and well but, as we are painting military vehicles, a finish which is not perfect more accurately reflects how these vehicles would have been done when first built. They would have been full of paint 'runs', surface contaminants, and numerous other flaws. A poor quality paint job would have been the norm. After all, speed of completion was the requirement, not a good finish. The paint they would have used in production would most likely have been a nitrocellulose lacquer or a variation of an enamel produced at the time. The irony is that in production, they would have sprayed a lot of things once the vehicle was almost or fully assembled, resulting in an appaulingly messy finish, with no regard to durability or resistance to damage of any kind. The concerns of succeptability to chemical and physical degradation were not of concern 70 years ago. Having this occur on your vehicle may actually give a more authentic appearance.

One final point. Which ever type of paint you choose, if you use a hardener, there is a fair chance the surface can handle a wipe down with mineral turpentine to get most substances off. You will be wise to test this for yourself, on an unseen area, prior to attempting a full scale clean on outside panels.

My enamel paint (with hardener additive) has served me well, and will actually lose more sheen over time. I also expect it will gain a weathered appearance with use and subsequent cleaning. Thats why I want to spray it as well as I can initially. Time will give me the more authentic aged look.

If you are getting a paint job done professionally, or your vehicle will be getting off-road use (and damage), go for the 2 Pack option. If not, save yourself some trouble and try the enamel. Just dont use enamel without adding the hardener. You'll be sorry in the long run if you do. Well thats my opinion anyway. Others views will vary, no doubt. Paint qualities will vary significantly across brands and types. Protec seems to be universally accepted as one of the more easier/better ones. I can certainly support this from prrsonal experience. I use Barrier type enamel. Its an industrial grade product, more for heavy equipment than, say....a Jaguar.

Hope this helps.

P.S: I cant offer opinion on putting a low sheen clear over solid colors, having never tried it, but I would have thought that a similar surface finish of the clear would sustain staining of contamination also. The clear would definately have to be of same paint brand & type, of course. Just bear in mind that a number of new vehicle manufacturers have moved away from "COB", which stands for Clear over Base, in favor of using the base only without clear top-coat. Base in this case refers to a color, usually metallic, but does not have to be. The down side of this decision is that when machine buffing a metallic finish, the physical abrasion of the cutting compound often leaves swirles visible, and these in turn require further polishing to remove. The same marks are left in a clear coat too, but they are invisible as no pigment is involved in this case. This logic does support the use of clear top-coat to reduce visible marking. I would welcome photos of both methods after a few years, to compare long term results.

Thanks very much Tony, that's exactly the kind of info I was seeking and couldn't get from paint companies! Most of them recommended acrylic but I couldn't get a satisfactory explanation as to why.

I would suspect the recommendation to acrylic has something to do with it being by far the easiest to prep for and to apply. Also, you can rub it back and spray over again within several hours, if not happy with the result. Acrylic paints have a natural tendency to be a lower sheen finish 'off the gun'. A desirable quality with MV applications. Flattening base significantly lowers the sheen with smaller volume required to do so compared with other paint types. Just be aware that all acrylics are more susceptable to water infultration, as opposed to poly or enamel (with similar flat base in them). And of course, you dont need a spray booth to apply. Its less likely to try and kill you if not wearing an ideal respirator. For the poly paints, we always used a spray hood type which had positive air pressure. Not an easy thing to become acdustomed to wearing, and compressor air STINKS too, take my word for it!

Thanks again Tony, sounds like acrylic may have some advantages for an amateur like me. I like the idea of using less flattener too, it strikes me as something to be minimized if possible.

Like you I'll be spraying everything outdoors. That's what I've always done in the past - usually out of necessity for want of a shed! However on the few occasions when I have sprayed panels indoors I've found they tend to attract MORE dust and insects, not less! Plus of course the fumes build up as you mention. As far as I can make out it's preferable in every way to spraypaint outdoors - unless you're running a business of course, in which case you can't always afford to wait for suitable weather!

Outdoor warning
 

If you live on a farm, then the spray is not an issue..

I was painting the tac and div signs on my carrier some years back in my garage with the door open. A neighbor came by all upset that my paint was speckling his car.
:mad:

Now, he was parked on the alley about 50 yards away, and was pointing out some dots about the size of a period on a printed page. Most were whitish and some words were about to be exchanged, but a few dots were the same color green as I was using for the Reconnaissance Tac sign of green and blue with white numbers. :doh:

Now I was painting from a rattle can, so I was rather gobsmacked that the overspray could travel some 50 yards. But I did see colored dots that did match my tac sign. :giveup

SO, I spent a good hour with a wooden popsickle stick rubbing out the dots.

Another time, after I moved here, I was painting the Humber A/C with a proper spray gun and realized I was gettign a nice cloud of spray wafting across the road - with the occasional car driving through it. Although no one stopped to complaine, It forced me to hold my spraying to when no traffic was passing, and I had to spend more time watching for cars than I did keeping an eye on my paint coverage. :nono:

Next paint job for the Humber will be by brush......

Paint mist / Overspray
 

Hello Jim,

Very good point! Some paint types worse than others. You wouldn't want to spray any varieties outside in suburbia. Not a problem for me here.

Which ever paint you use, if sprayed outdoors, and neighbours (or their cars etc...) are in proximity, they will get gassed and paint mist will settle in unwanted places.

Im glad you brought this up, Jim. Tony Ws paint shop may be taking his painting environment into account when they encouraged acrylic. Believe it or not, I met my wife as a result of painting a friends car in an enclosed garage that he chose, which belonged to a female friend of his who was sharing a unit with the girl who has now been my wife for nearly 25 years. I was in the process of spraying in the enclosed garage, when she opened the access door and walked in wihout realising the volume of acrylic paint mist inside. Needless to say she didnt hang around in there and retreated ASAP. It was in checking that she was OK that I came to meet her. Do note, it was acrylic paint. If it was poly or enamel, I couldnt have painted in that location. Would have been too unpleasent for those in nearby units etc., and the paint spray would have settled onto the garage floor. Once dried, you would not get it off the concrete. Thats the good thing about acrylic, it dries into a dust while still in the air, and unless it finds something to contaminate close to the place its being sprayed, it is just an annoying smell and lots of powdery dust. Not so simple with the other paint types. Their mist can travel 50 meters of so, while still being able to attach itself to something valuable when it arrives. Once again, not a problem for me here, but the front roller door of my workshop has a texture approaching 240 grit sandpaper, solely because of the enamel paint dust that has settled there.

Tip: to remove paint spray contamination that is not completely dry, use a soft rag with mineral turpentine on it. It works on a variety of surfaces, including vehicles with factory paint or repainted with anything other than enamel. You can even use it over enamel, so long as hardener was used and surface was not freshly painted.

Theres lots of consideration to achieving a good paint job!