MLU FORUM - WD Census Numbers allotted to Canadian Forces in England (1942)

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Hanno Spoelstra

09-09-20 23:07

WD Census Numbers allotted to Canadian Forces in England (1942)

1 Attachment(s)

This document was reproduced on the late Clive Law's now-defunct ramtank.ca website. To make it more accessible, I have copied the document in the attached file and cleaned up the formatting so the list is properly aligned (which can be hard to do on websites and forums like this).

Census 4-1-0 GWG/WEC
No. 4 Sub-Depot,
1st Canadian Base Ordnance Depot,
20 October 42

CANADIAN W.D. NUMBERS

1. The following list includes all W.D. numbers allotted to Canadian Forces in England by War Office.

2. It is pointed out that the former R.C.A.S.C. series of numbers has been discontinued and that there will therefore be no future addition to this section. Further blocks of numbers may be allotted to cover increases in Canadian Vehicle strength in the future and notification of these addition will be forwarded as they occurs.

3. We would also draw to your attention the fact that the prefix "C" which indicates a Canadian W.D. Vehicle is also applied against British W.D. numbers whenever the vehicle in question is purchased by the Canadian Forces. The addition of this prefix "C" should, however, only be applied on instruction of Vehicle Census Branch.

CANADIAN WD NUMBER SERIES AS PER WAR OFFICE ALLOTMENT BY VEHICLE TYPES AS AT 20-10-42

[listing follows - see attachment]

Attachment 116030

Harry Moon

10-09-20 01:42

Census number

nice to see my census number corresponding to these records for my Lynx1. CF61782, befitting its early production number, Ford serial #23 and IHC #30

Bruce Parker (RIP)

10-09-20 03:02

Now somebody has to find 1942 to 1945.

I do have one question. Canadian production CMPs didn't have census numbers issued at the factory or in Canada. They were assigned in Europe as per the list in this thread, and then had a lead tag with the number wired on to the steering column. But Otters, Fox, Lynx and carriers were issued their census numbers at the factory. How then did a list like the one here with ranges work with those numbers assigned in Canada?

Harry Moon

10-09-20 03:23

Canadaor factory numbers

How do we know that any census numbers were applied at the factory?
I think when census numbers were attached to armoured vehicles they stamped the numbers on so as to aid in identification of vehicles damaged in operations.

Bruce Parker (RIP)

10-09-20 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Moon (Post 272249)

Factory photos. Carriers that stayed in Canada have them stamped, which would not have been needed for those that never went overseas (they all had them).

I've never seen a stamped census number on a Fox or Otter, only factory applied painted ones.

Jordan Baker

10-09-20 04:05

1 Attachment(s)

The shipping documents support that Carriers, Fox AC, Otter LRC and Lynx Scout Car all were given WD numbers while in Canada.

As an example here is three Otter LRC’s going overseas.

Harry Moon

10-09-20 04:17

overseas bound

that is evidence of those headed for England had census numbers applied. As i understand it different census number system was used in Canada.

Hanno Spoelstra

10-09-20 08:18

"Further blocks of numbers may be allotted ..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker (Post 272247)

Now somebody has to find 1942 to 1945.

It depends, if the assigned number ranges were sufficient, they wouldn't have had to assign further blocks of numbers. From the document:
"Further blocks of numbers may be allotted to cover increases in Canadian Vehicle strength in the future and notification of these addition will be forwarded as they occurs."

Clive published a July 1943-dated list in his last book, at first glance it seems the same though in this version he listed the 42- ranges (plus one block of 44-) as allocated to Canadian Army Overseas, whereas the other ranges are listed under the RCASC ranges which were discontinued. The 46- range for Recce Cars is missing from this listing, which may make sense as he only listed B-series vehicles.
The footnote discribes that the RCASC numbers were alloted to B-vehicles driven by RCASC personnel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 266332)

This table of census numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas narrows down your search:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...4&d=1579901898
Source: Clive Law’s “Drive to Victory”

Hanno Spoelstra

10-09-20 08:51

A-vehicles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker (Post 272247)

But Otters, Fox, Lynx and carriers were issued their census numbers at the factory. How then did a list like the one here with ranges work with those numbers assigned in Canada?

As far as I can ascertain, all A-vehicles had a census number applied to them at the factory as the contracts for these vehicles each had a batch of census numbers allotted to them. The 1942 document attached above does list armoured vehicles.

I think what was happening is that the RCASC first applied their numbers to their vehicles (see the footnote in Clive's table above). This was bound to create overlap, hence the numbering blocks assigned in 1942.

Much more detail on "Allocation by Central Census Tanks and Vehicles of "B" Vehicle W.D. Numbers" (i.e. the Chilwell list) in this thread and others on this forum.

Patrice DEBUCQUOY

10-09-20 11:22

Hello Hanno,

You write : "The 46- range for Recce Cars is missing from this listing, which may make sense as he only listed B-series vehicles."
In the book "Europe WW2" (Canadian Military Historical Society) , the Recce Cars (Otter and Humber LRC) are listed in the "B" section as well as the Trucks Armoured (M3A1 and C15TA) .
Only the Scout Cars and Armoured Cars are in the "A" section.

Patrice.

Hanno Spoelstra

10-09-20 12:26

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrice DEBUCQUOY (Post 272258)

You write : "The 46- range for Recce Cars is missing from this listing, which may make sense as he only listed B-series vehicles."
In the book "Europe WW2" (Canadian Military Historical Society) , the Recce Cars (Otter and Humber LRC) are listed in the "B" section as well as the Trucks Armoured (M3A1 and C15TA) .
Only the Scout Cars and Armoured Cars are in the "A" section.

Hello Patrice, your are right. The manual “Canadian Military Headquarters. Vehicle Data Book (Restricted). 1944“ list the Recce cars under the B-vehicles section :thup:

Attachment 116035

That manual also has a note on the placement of WD Numbers, but no number ranges:

Attachment 116036

Bruce Parker (RIP)

10-09-20 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Moon (Post 272252)

that is evidence of those headed for England had census numbers applied. As i understand it different census number system was used in Canada.

Correct, vehicles in Canada followed a completely different system, yet Otters, Fox, Lynx and carriers had factory census numbers that followed the overseas system. So what you'll see, for instance, is a Fox (that never went overseas) at Camp Borden with an overseas CF style number.

Bruce Parker (RIP)

10-09-20 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrice DEBUCQUOY (Post 272258)

In the book "Europe WW2" (Canadian Military Historical Society) , the Recce Cars (Otter and Humber LRC) are listed in the "B" section as well as the Trucks Armoured (M3A1 and C15TA) .
Only the Scout Cars and Armoured Cars are in the "A" section.

My suspicionis that Otters went from being an A vehicle in 1942 to a B one by 1944.

Jordan Baker

10-09-20 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker (Post 272263)

My suspicionis that Otters went from being an A vehicle in 1942 to a B one by 1944.

Which is odd because the late Otters went from a WD# of CM4647... to CF..... or F..... Early on they were called a “Car, Light Recce” which the “M” in the WD# supports whereas the “F” was also used by the Fox and Lynx.

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