Vehicle Data Book: pre-March 1944 edition??

[Alex van de Wetering]

As Bill Gregg wrote in this own "Canada's Fighting Vehicles", the first section of the book is basically a carbon copy of the "Vehicle Data book" of March 1944.

Does anyone know if there every was an earlier edition of the Vehicle Data Book?
As the book is from March 1944 some of the early vehicles have not been included; I hope an earlier edition could give us some more info on the earlier stuff. Was there ever a 1943 edition, maybe?

Alex

[Paul Singleton]

I have these two.

[Paul Singleton]

My book also says that it is a reprint of the vehicle data book from March 1944. Your book has “second edition “ on the cover so mine must be the first edition. The Blueprint for Victory book is about the research and British influence in design and manufacturing of vehicles in preparation for war.

[rob love]

I have an original copy which has the stamp of PJ Montague on the inside cover. The book is dated Dec of 44 on the inside cover. The book makes no mention of superseding previous or earlier editions.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Paul Singleton

My book also says that it is a reprint of the vehicle data book from March 1944. Your book has “second edition “ on the cover so mine must be the first edition. The Blueprint for Victory book is about the research and British influence in design and manufacturing of vehicles in preparation for war.

The first edition has the same cropped and sanitized photos as the original publication. Bill Gregg found the original unedited photos in the archives that were used for the original book, so he printed a second edition with those photos instead, believing that those photos were far more interesting to collectors.

[Ed Storey]

I did not know that there was a bound version of the Vehicle Data Book - Canadian Army Overseas - December 1944 as I have one of the heavy card cover editions.



Judging by publication dates, The Data Book series of manuals appears to predate the Overseas edition by two years. This is just one of the titles from the series.

[rob love]

Nothing as fancy as a bound copy Ed....just a different, more dignified cover. The cover is embossed "Chief Of Staff" on the bottom right corner.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Wow, great to see those original books!

Mike Cecil quoted Bill Gregg on the first version dating back to March 1943:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Bill Gregg was quite open about the source being that data book. This from his introduction: 'The first part is essentially a photo facsimile of the original Vehicle Data Book issued in March 1943...'

For those looking for a copy, I posted a link to a downloadable pfd-version of the December 1944 edition here:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Download and read “Canadian Military Headquarters. Vehicle Data Book (Restricted). 1944“ here:
https://wartimecanada.ca/document/se...icle-data-book

[Alex van de Wetering]

Guys,

Thanks for your replies.

That's interesting, so given Bill Greggs mention of the "March 1944" book, it could be that there is at least a March 1944 and a December 1944 book and earlier publications in the form of the manual series as posted by Ed.

I will have a look with the link Hanno posted to see if there are differences between the december 1944 issue and Bill Greggs book based on the March 44 edition.


@Ed; I have never seen the manual series. Is that data book in the same style as the March 44 and/or December 44 Data book; one picture and a list of specs? Late 1942 means it would already have 13cab CMPs included?

@Paul; Sorry, my bad...I was after earlier publications of the official Data book, not the actual Gregg book. My copy is indeed the Volume 1, 2nd edition.

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Judging by publication dates, The Data Book series of manuals appears to predate the Overseas edition by two years. This is just one of the titles from the series.

Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles is one of this series (see the link for an original which went to Grant Hopkins);

Data Book Tank type vehicles of Canadian manufacture is another (I have a laserprinted copy for sale if anyone is interested);

Are there any other manuals in this series?

[Alex van de Wetering]

I will have a look with the link Hanno posted to see if there are differences between the december 1944 issue and Bill Greggs book based on the March 44 edition.

So far I haven't noticed any differences; even the page numbers and index pages match. The only differences are the pictures from what I see, but as Rob mentioned this is mainly a difference between the original publication and Bill Greggs publication. What is interesting though is that some pictures were not just replaced by the non-edited pictures, but sometimes completely different ( and incorrect in some cases) pictures.
So, it seems the March 44 and December 44 editions are identical. Or maybe Bills mentioned of "March" is just incorrect and it was actually december 44(?)

Alex

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by rob love

Nothing as fancy as a bound copy Ed....just a different, more dignified cover. The cover is embosses "Chief Of Staff on the bottom right corner.

None-the-less, it is an edition I have not seen before.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles is one of this series (see the link for an original which went to Grant Hopkins);

Data Book Tank type vehicles of Canadian manufacture is another (I have a laserprinted copy for sale if anyone is interested);

Are there any other manuals in this series?

I am not sure if there was a March 1944 edition of the Vehicle Data Book, but I know Bill borrowed the original book from what was back in the 1980s, the Department of National Defence Land Technical Library. This library was a fascinating collection but is long defunct with some of the holdings having been sent to the CWM.

Here are two more titles from the Data Book series as well as a sample page from the Canadian Armoured Vehicles book.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Or maybe Bills mentioned of "March" is just incorrect and it was actually december 44(?)

I hope Mike Cecil chimes in re.:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Bill Gregg was quite open about the source being that data book. This from his introduction: 'The first part is essentially a photo facsimile of the original Vehicle Data Book issued in March 1943...'

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

@Ed; I have never seen the manual series. Is that data book in the same style as the March 44 and/or December 44 Data book; one picture and a list of specs? Late 1942 means it would already have 13cab CMPs included?

Alex, here is a sample page Ed posted in an earlier thread. It looks like the Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles contains interesting info re. the C60X Machinery that you've been looking for?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I am not sure if there was a March 1944 edition of the Vehicle Data Book, but I know Bill borrowed the original book from what was back in the 1980s, the Department of National Defence Land Technical Library. This library was a fascinating collection but is long defunct with some of the holdings having been sent to the CWM.

Here are two more titles from the Data Book series as well as a sample page from the Canadian Armoured Vehicles book.

Fascinating stuff, Thanks Ed!

The Data Book Tank type vehicles of Canadian manufacture which I copied is owned by David Herbert. The ID No of this publication is M&S 1877 and it is dated 1-44. It has a revisions and additions sheet issued February 15th 1945, and the revised pages on the Ram, Sexton, Skink, R975-C4 engine, Polsten gun and Mk.9 Sight added, replacing the pages issued January 1944. Each vehicle has a section of its own, comprising of several pages with detailed technical information.

The Vehicle Data Book is more generic, describing the vehicles used for the invasion of mainland Europe on only one page each. Much more like a recognition manual than an extensive technical publication.

Now, who is going to reproduce these Data Books, please?

I would buy the whole set.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I hope Mike Cecil chimes in re.:

Hanno, this is what it says in the second edition of "Canada's Fighting Vehicles", March 1944. Can anyone check in the first volume if it says 1943 or 1944?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Alex, here is a sample page Ed posted in an earlier thread. It looks like the Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles contains interesting info re. the C60X Machinery that you've been looking for?

Hanno, yes, you have me there....I was indeed interested in what the book says on the C60X Machinery C, but just much as what it says on other early material....C8, early LAAT, Machinery ZL etc.

Ed, is that page from the Manual series data book, or the december 1944 Data book? The reason I ask, is that the page doesn't match the scanned december 1944 data book that Hanno posted earlier. Could it be that it's actually a page from the Manual series Data book?

The dates are pretty confusing to me. It seems the Manual series data book has "1M-6-1942 D.L.L." printed in the left lower corner of the cover, while some of the contents says "issued 1 March '44" and I understand even "issued 1 december 1944" and "issued 1 August '45"(?)

Alex

[David Dunlop]

Alex.

It might just be an initial print date in loose leaf format and any new information pages added, came with their own date. Sometimes the word “Revision” was only added to a new page if the new page was actually replacing a preexisting older one.

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

It might just be an initial print date in loose leaf format and any new information pages added, came with their own date. Sometimes the word “Revision” was only added to a new page if the new page was actually replacing a preexisting older one.

Hi David,

Yes, it sounds like it was more of an "active" data book as Hanno also described regarding the "Tank data book", but that means the "Manual series Data book" and the "Vehicle Data book" were used (and updated?) simultaneously.
Bill Gregg writes that "the original handbook was piblished to list vehicles chosen to serve in the imminent European invasion" (As Hanno also mentioned above), so was the Manual series data book the complete catalogue of all Canadian vehicles.....also including stuff like the many F60H special bodied vehicles as seen in Clive's Vehicles of Victory, for instance?

[Ed Storey]

I can confirm that the Universal Carrier page which I attached to my post was indeed from the Canadian Armoured Vehicles book.

Yes, this book series was live, being updated regularly with amendment sheets. The imprint data on the black covers is a good indication of the initial print date. Finding the original pages for these publications is the challenge as the print runs were small and the survivability of the books is low.

[Alex van de Wetering]

I can confirm that the Universal Carrier page which I attached to my post was indeed from the Canadian Armoured Vehicles book.

Thanks Ed. And the C60X Mach-A page in Hanno's post #15 ? Is this from "Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles" or the "Vehicle Data Book - Canadian Army Overseas - December 1944"?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Thanks Ed. And the C60X Mach-A page in Hanno's post #15 ? Is this from "Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles" or the "Vehicle Data Book - Canadian Army Overseas - December 1944"?

It is from Data Book Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles, see the earlier thread on this book.

[Ed Storey]

The wartime Vehicle Data Books were supplemented in 1946 by Data Summary sheets published by the Army for each specific vehicle type still in service. Data Summaries were not only published for both military and civilian pattern vehicles but also for weapons and communications systems. The Summaries are a living series and is still in publication by the Canadian Forces today with items being added and deleted as they are purchased by the military.

For those interested in CMPs, the last of these wartime vehicles (mostly specialist versions) were eventually replaced by M-Series SMP Pattern trucks in the mid 1960s.

[rob love]

Didn't the KL lorry at Borden remain in service into the 70s?

My microfiche of parts was still listing some items particular to the KL into the mid-80s.


Another long serving WW2 CMP was the Ingersol Rand 105cft compressors on the CMP trailer. We had one here in Manitoba that remained in service until 1987. It now resides out in my yard.

[Ed Storey]

Just because a part is listed within the DND microfishe does that mean the vehicle or vehicles it is associated with are still in use, or is it that the supply system has not caught up with removing the listing?

As in the case of the Ingersol Rand compressors, I agree that there are always exceptions, but on the whole, the CMP range had by the mid-1960s been replaced by the SMP M-Series.

[rob love]

Back then it was the system not keeping up. The computer system was not up to identifying or removing obsolete part numbers. You could still order CMP Cab11/12 blackout headlight assemblys right into the mid 90s.

[Sergey Egorov]

Does anyone know about the contents of this book?

[Mike Cecil]

'Hanno, this is what it says in the second edition of "Canada's Fighting Vehicles", March 1944. Can anyone check in the first volume if it says 1943 or 1944?'

It says 1944: my mistake.

Mike

[Alex van de Wetering]

It says 1944: my mistake.

Mike

Thanks for the confirmation Mike!