Bren Carrier- Supreme Court of Canada decision

[Robert Bergeron]

Gentlemen,

I recently ( yesterday ) at work came across this decision from the Supreme Court of Canada concerning a collision between a car and a Bren Carrier ( i.e. a Universal Carrier ) on a public highway in Ontario.

Here is the link: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/sc.../2/document.do

Tell me if you experiment problems opening the link and i will give you the reference number and year it was reported.

So happens the driver of said Bren Carrier was motoring away at an unsafe speed on an icy public highway, lost control ( skidded ) and hit a car with ensuing damages to the car .No word on the damages suffered to the Carrier . Fortunately nobody was seriously injured. The Carrier of all the cars or trucks it could of hit , ran into an ambulance.

I have read discussions in this Forum concerning the use of Universal Carriers on public roads. I think i just discovered why we are not welcome to share the public highways with the general public in our tracked and armored toys in Ontario and Québec.

The good folks in British Colombia that allow driving Bren Carriers on public roads are more reasonable and have all but forgotten about this case.

The Justices in their decision have a discussion on proper techniques of driving a Carrier in the snow, sleet and ice .

I wish i had read it before going out on a 3 mile drive in the snow on my private road last week-end . I would of driven slower .

This important historical event should be publicised and lessons learned from it.

Warning ,please do see the humour in my post before getting excited . Thanks.

Good reading .

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Robert. interesting, but me not being good with "legalese", I had some difficulty.
Three comments to wind up the spring;
1. Over here, we are required under the law, "We must be able to stop in half the clear distance". This is a good law. It puts the onus on the driver. Based on this premis:
2. The carrier (8 tons of it! ????Ha! Ha!) was stopped,(momentarily) and the ambulance ran into the carrier. :-) The carrier driver was travelling too fast, but so was the Ambulance driver. Both displayed degrees of negligence.(Evidence stated the ambulance was travelling at twice the speed of the carrier, but the carrier was safer in those conditions)
3. The first case failed to find the "Crown" in the wrong, because the "Crown" was covering it's own backside (don't lawyers swear allegiance to the Crown"?

That successfully wasted some time!

[Robert Bergeron]

Hi Lynn ,

Do you get a lot of snow , ice and sleet in NZ and thus practice in such conditions like we do here ?

Did you like the cross examination of the Bren Gun Carrier driver were he says he is driving with one track on the shoulder for better traction ?

Where else but in Canada would any Supreme Court discuss Bren Gun Carrier driving techniques ? We like Carriers in CA-RRIER-NADA .

Did you like it when they called the Carrier a '' Tank '' ?

I certainly waisted a lot of time at work on this one but hey, i laughed so hard i almost lost a filling !

[rob love]

Ice is bad on a carrier, but for a real thrill try cobblestone or brick roadway. That will sober you up quickly.

[Lynn Eades]

Hi Robert, We see a sprinkle on the hills about 30km away, about once every 20 years. It does happen further south. one of my boys skis, but he lives in the South Island.
If I ever drive a carrier in the snow, it is likely to be because I visited Canada at the wrong time of year. So far, my time on your continent comprises about 1 hour in the LAX.
I guess at 8 ton, it had shifted into the "tank" category?.

[charlie fitton]

Originally Posted by rob love

Ice is bad on a carrier, but for a real thrill try cobblestone or brick roadway. That will sober you up quickly.

or a slight dusting of sand on asphalt..

[maple_leaf_eh]

Interesting geography and road maintenance lesson in this case. The Private was doing a road test on Hwy 17 East of Ottawa between Cumberland and what was once LETE in Orleans. How many times have I driven that road? The cleared path was 24 to 26' wide, which is quite narrow by today's standards. (I think a driving lane is only about 10' wide.) The road was cleared, but with light accumulation and somewhat idcy. Seems reasonable for the results of WW2 highway vehicles which used flat plows, scraper boards and rollers versus highspeed plows and chemical deicers and salt.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

Did you like the cross examination of the Bren Gun Carrier driver were he says he is driving with one track on the shoulder for better traction ?

I recall having to do this with a 5/4 ton MRT here in Manitoba from Shilo to Winnipeg. The asphalt was sheer ice, we had been in the field for 2 weeks, we were delayed from leaving, and the roadmove was over an hour ahead of us. It was "high lock" all the way with 2 wheels on the black, and 2 wheels on the gravel shoulder. I can't recall if we were doing 90 kmh or 120kmh.......it can't be the second one as that would not have been legal so it must have been the 90 kmh. I do recall that we used up both tanks of fuel for the 200 km trip.

As we got past Portage La Prairie, the 5/4 ambulance was laying abandoned on it's side in the center ditch. According to the driver, the wind hit them and blew them right off the road.

Ahhh, for the youthful days of immortality. Back then, if we were driving the M113s down the trans-Canada, and the RCMP told us the road was closed due to the poor conditions, we woudl just go the rest of the way in the ditch.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Robert

Thanks for sharing this one with us, got to be one of the stranger Military Vehicle stories. Read the case summary from your link, and I will have to share it with some of the lawyers who are into Military Vehicles.

Cheers Phil

[Robert Bergeron]

Very welcome Phil.

This hobby is not just about nuts and bolts, grease and oil.

There is also a little legal '' bullshit '' involved , just like life in general .

As long as the legal bullshit does not take too much fun out of the activity, all is well.