Wanted: Sexton Lights

[Tom Millward]

Hello to you all,

I'm assisting the rebuild of the Royal Artillery Historical trust Sexton II. We're in need of the biscuit tin style headlights and the small last style CMP side lights, does anyone know of a source for them? I've tried LWD parts but they're out of stock.

We'd be grateful for any leads as we're planning on taking it to Holland in 2024 and will probably need lights.

Many thanks,

[rob love]

Check with Brian Asbury. I recall seeing some headlamps there a few years ago when I visited, but they may be gone now.

[Grant Bowker]

The smaller, metal, pattern side lights (tail lights etc) often show up, presumably repros, on ebay as being suited to Harley Davidson WLCs.
Links seen today (I serched for "harley-davidson WLC light") - sorry for the long URLs...:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/115165398743...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/113853710129...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ


This one says NOS...
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/224853249697...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

By biscuit tin you mean like these?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

The smaller, metal, pattern side lights (tail lights etc) often show up, presumably repros, on ebay as being suited to Harley Davidson WLCs.
Links seen today (I serched for "harley-davidson WLC light") - sorry for the long URLs...:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/115165398743...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/113853710129...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ


This one says NOS...
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/224853249697...Bk9SR8yXzJWQYQ

Grant: You should warn people to be sitting down when they open those links. Those prices are unreal.

[chris vickery]

Unreal and almost criminal.
The collector world has lost their collective minds.
One day soon, this stuff is literally worth nothing…

[Tom Millward]

Originally Posted by rob love

Check with Brian Asbury. I recall seeing some headlamps there a few years ago when I visited, but they may be gone now.

Thanks Rob, I'll send Brian a message. I bought an early Carrier rear light from him a few years ago, so hopefully he'll have something for the Sexton.

[Tom Millward]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

By biscuit tin you mean like these?

Yes Bruce those are the ones. Is there a proper name for them?

[Tom Millward]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

The smaller, metal, pattern side lights (tail lights etc) often show up, presumably repros, on ebay as being suited to Harley Davidson WLCs.

Thanks or the links Grant, I was thankfully sitting down when I clicked on the link!

The pictures a re good though I can show the team what we're looking for.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Tom Millward

Yes Bruce those are the ones. Is there a proper name for them?

I'm sure there is but I usually just call them early CMP headlamp pots as they are used on 11/12 cab CMPs and a larger number of Canadian armoured vehicles. The variation used on vehicles like Mk.1 carriers are identical except for brackets on the sides for posts instead of the fitting for the nut on the bottom.

I had listed these for sale and they actually look better in person than in the pics. They don't have the mirror reflector that takes the headlamp and marker lamp bulbs.

[rob love]

I believe those Cdn style headlights are actually slightly economized Ford tractor headlamps form the 1920s/30s. I have one out in the shed that is extremely close to the CMP headlamp, with the exception of a little more ornate retaining ring.

[Tom Millward]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I'm sure there is but I usually just call them early CMP headlamp pots as they are used on 11/12 cab CMPs and a larger number of Canadian armoured vehicles. The variation used on vehicles like Mk.1 carriers are identical except for brackets on the sides for posts instead of the fitting for the nut on the bottom.

I had listed these for sale and they actually look better in person than in the pics. They don't have the mirror reflector that takes the headlamp and marker lamp bulbs.

Hi Rob, do you still have these lights for sale or have they gone to a new home?

I message Brian, but unfortunately it seems he only has the Carrier type.

Cheers,

Tom

[Bob Phillips]

Hi Tom, just seeking clarification, you need a PAIR ( ie left and right) ?

[Bob Phillips]

Something like this?

[rob love]

I opened a crate of those last year here at the museum. They did need the reflectors polished a little bit (they tarnish) and the wiring replaced as the covering was cracking from old age, but it's always hard to beat NOS.

[Colin Alford]

Tom,

The early Sextons with 3-piece differentials used the same headlights as Ram Tanks (similar to Canadian Mk 1* Universal Carrier headlights but with a threaded fitting to attach the wiring conduit rather than a bushed hole on a Carrier light).

Late Sexton IIs used US pedestal headlights attached near the outside edges of the superstructure.

I just did a quick search for war-time images of early Sexton IIs with one-piece differentials. While many of the images are out-of-focus, or there are visual obstructions, my initial interpretation is that they used the same headlights as Ram Tanks/ early Sextons.

The only images I found with headlight brackets similar to your example, are post-war images which might indicate a post-war modification.

I suspect that fitting a CMP-type headlight to your existing brackets would place the headlights too high and not fully protected by the curved guard.

I don't have access to any Sexton parts lists, but I suggest additional research to determine the correct war-time headlights/headlight brackets for this vehicle.

I can attempt to find some images this evening.

Colin

[rob love]

I guess I am kind of lucky because there is a Sexton sitting about 30 feet from my desk. And on the other side of the wall, so maybe 4 feet as the crow flies, there is a 1943 original copy of the Sexton manual, book serial number A1251.
I am going to lazily post some photos of the relevant pages, but if the public demands it, I can try and for a bit better photos. Scanning is out as the book is bound.

[rob love]

And here is the vehicle itself. The lamps on it are the cmp truck lamps as typically found on the market. Very possibly the headlamps Brian Asbury has are the correct ones for a Sexton, which was why I mentioned them.

[Colin Alford]

Rob,

Thanks for posting those images from the parts list.

I do have access to a Canadian Master Parts List for Tank Type Vehicles (which is un-illustrated).

Using the headlight part numbers of C-4942 and C-4943 from your Sexton list, the Master List shows that these numbers are correct for Ram I, Ram II, Ram Command/O.P. and Sexton "Up to Veh.#1300 Ser.#S-234801"

With the Sexton that Tom is working on being number 1164 and WD number S234665, I believe that the type of headlight and bracket as illustrated in the Sexton parts list would be the correct type for both Tom's project, and the Shilo Sexton.

I suspect that both vehicles had their headlight mounts modified post-war to suit available types of headlights. While the current mounts on these two vehicles are different from each other, and the early CMP headlights appear to fit well, they seem to sit higher than if they had the original mounts.

While headlights with the two side mounts (UC Mk1*/Valentine/Ram type) are relatively available, it will likely be very difficult to obtain original mounts for them.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

Gents,

I had a mental image of the mounting brackets being relatively complex but apparently I was remembering the Canadian Valentine mounts (pictured).

[Colin Alford]

Here are some images from the Ram I and II parts list. This mount appears much simpler than the Valentine mount and more similar to the mount Rob pictured from the early Sexton parts list. On Ram I and II, the headlight mounting brackets were welded to the 3-piece differential.

The master parts list shows that the Sexton headlight mounts were the same as Ram up to Sexton #84.

Rob,

Does your Sexton parts list detail any changes in the headlight mount after veh 84, and does it give any indication of how the mount attached to the hull? (I realize you may not get back to the parts list until Monday).

Colin

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

"Bulb, R.H. Purple" First time I've seen that. What colour was the left? Was this a tank thing only? I expect early because later on typically there was a single hooded lamp on the left.

[Jordan Baker]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

"Bulb, R.H. Purple" First time I've seen that. What colour was the left? Was this a tank thing only? I expect early because later on typically there was a single hooded lamp on the left.

One of the headlamps I got for my old carrier was a Sexton light. It had a brass fitting on the rear for the wires to pass through and a purple light bulb inside.

[Colin Alford]

Bruce,

The “purple” bulb was U.V.

I read an explanation somewhere, but my memory is that it was a short lived Canadian attempt at improving blackout driving where the U.V. Lamp would be used to illuminate white markings on the rear of preceding vehicles.

Attached are images from the May ‘42 Ram I and II instruction book, Apr ‘43 Ram II instruction book, and Jan ‘44 Data book, showing the progression of the Ram lighting arrangements.

The left bulb was clear throughout production, whereas the right bulb started clear, changed to U.V., then reverted to clear.

[Colin Alford]

Tom,

Here is an image showing the difference between a Carrier headlight, and one originally manufactured for a tank type vehicle.

The tank type headlight has the treaded union, whereas the carrier headlight has a bushing ( damaged on this example). It should be easy to convert them if required.

[Colin Alford]

Bruce,

Here is the link to CMHQ file 55/621/T37 - U.V. Lighting in Ram Tanks:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...eel_c5778/3980

It does not contain much information.

Colin

[Colin Alford]

Tom,

Are there any weld scars on your differential housing to indicate where the original brackets were fitted?

The attached image was shared by Alex in post #6 of this thread: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...d.php?p=265924

This is the best image I have found which shows the early headlight bracket on a one-piece differential (it certainly helps that the headlights are missing).

My best guess is that the bracket as shown in Rob’s images from the Early Sexton parts list is welded directly to the differential housing.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Tom,

Here is an image showing the difference between a Carrier headlight, and one originally manufactured for a tank type vehicle.

And, for the sake of identification, here is the same style light showing the cable connection for a Cab 11/12 CMP. These connections are Left- and Right-Handed (ie 2 versions of light housing for the CMP).

[tankbarrell]

I don't think Sexton ever had the post mounted Canadian lights. I believe they went from the stirrup mounted Canadian lamp to the US socket mounted on the glacis plate.

Certainly on Ram, the stirrups were welded straight onto the transmission housing and I'm sure Sexton was no different.

The various styles of bracket seen on post war Sextons are to take the standard British Butler or Lucas lamps.

[Tom Millward]

Hello Chaps, thanks for all the info, I'm starting to build a better picture of what should be fitted and what's been done to the vehicle post war now.

Very interesting to read of the UV bulb that was fitted to RH side to aid night driving, I wonder whether Carriers did the same thing?

So, my understanding so far is that the correct headlights should be the stirrup type, as fitted to the Mk1* Carrier, but with a screw connection on the back (presumably for the armoured cable conduit fittings?).

I will ask the guys in the workshop to check for any welding scars on the nose plate. I'm guessing that the stirrup style headlamps must have been removed along with their brackets during the postwar rebuild and new brackets welded on to accept the Butler lights.

I'll discuss it with the group, but I'm thinking I'll need to remove the current headlamp mounts, remanufacture a pair of stirrup mounts and weld them onto the nose casting.

Thankfully Brian has one of the correct headlamps with the threaded boss on the back.

Does anyone have dimensions for the stirrup? Or could I use the Carrier style housing for the the rough dimensions?

Thanks again,

Tom