correct ground movement hand signals

[cpetronis]

Today is the day of questions, got another one for your consideration please.
How about ground guide hand signals, is there a British training manual for that? There's a great but very short shot of Polish Shermans embarking for Normandy. In this two second clip an MP from the traffic control squadron is using a specific clenched fist to indicate which track to lock up while motioning with his other hand as the tank turns.
This may sound like a nitpicking type question but if I'm going to be in view of the public while moving armour, I might as well use the proper hand signals if possible. In addition, it would give every member of the team a standardized means of communicating with the driver. I'm sure there was a lot of common sense type signals used as well but I'd rather have something documented if possible.
From my personal experience in the Navy, I noticed the Army and Air Force folks seemed to definitely have codified hand signals when moving vehicles. I had "organizational envy" because us Navy guys just flailed our hands wildly and screamed "Mom-back." Of course that was just my experience. I'm sure there was probably some official training provided by the Navy, I was most likely sick that day. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/im...ies/cheers.gif

Thanks,

Chris

[tankbarrell]

I have a copy of the official British Army manual for vehicle signals, it's dated 1980's but likely unchanged for years. My experience has been that tank crews use a version of it in reality..... However, the basic principles should be simple and unambiguous. The hardest thing is to get the driver, who is usually the owner, to do as he is directed. Most tank owners tend to think they know best and don't take direction well!

[rob love]

We have a very set pattern in the Cdn military. It always perturbs me when a guy suddenly introduces hand signals from whatever civilian trucking company that he worked for before entering the CF.

The other big problem I run into is kind of the opposite of what tankbarrel comments on. When I am moving armour, I very often get guides who overthink the backwards movement and give me the opposite signal to what I need. When backing up next to another piece of armour, it can be embarrassing. When backing onto a semitrailer with only an inch or two to spare on both sides, this can be disastrous. I will either freeze the vehicle and ask the guide if that's what he really wants, or else make a very slight correction in the direction he asks for, to which he will usually realize his mistake and make the proper hand signal.

Even with a guide, sometimes things still go wrong. I was backing a M113A2 off a semi trailer about two weeks ago. The ramps were quite steep, and it was the first time I was using this trailer with the 113. When the carrier got to it's tipping point, I must have had one tiller bar dragging a little tighter than the other and the carrier decided to turn about 20° from straight. I tried to make corrections in that split second and it was not working out, so I braced for what I thought was going to be a nasty ride down to earth. It came down as smooth as butter....I guess with the distance of carrier that hung over before the tip, it was close enough to the ground that all worked out.

On the return trip, once I was at the tipping point, I just let the carrier roll off until I was off the trailer.

[Bob Carriere]

Go ahead back up
or right turn left....

Are there a set of hand signals that we could all learned based on the military usage......

I have encountered the same problem when backing up my trailer and getting help.....and then I look in the rear view mirror and get the signals all reversed again.....???

This is a very important topic....

Cheers

[RichardT10829]

owner, to do as he is directed. Most tank owners tend to think they know best and don't take direction well!
__________________


Speak for yourself Adrian. I rely entirely on the commander be it ground or mounted.

I just pick my commanders very very carefully indeed.

I have seen A carrier owner get lambasted by arena staff for not watching or doing as instructed by ground commander.

And have myself had cause to somewhat "Firm" with drivers when I have undertaken commander role.


You are right though (some) owners don't listen, but my experience is those are a minority, of which I tend to steer clear of.

Hand signals wise, I was taught the following

Commander initiates direction of travel. Until notified otherwise that will be the direction of travel.

The commander will raise his / her arm fist clenched, which ever hand is raised with clenched fist, that track must be locked to allow steering input., the hand will promptly be lowered which means the brake on that track must be removed and allowed to roll.

Arms across the front of the commander in a cross signify to stop immediately.

I usually use signals indicating a bend rather than a nip / brake and some others which are familiar with my group, not official of course.

All good fun !

Oh and ground commanders ALWAYS command from the front of the vehicle NOT the rear !

[shaun]

Very true guys , we had a carrier owner on our pitch who would not listen to directions and nearly took the tent down . The serving ASM who was seeing him back was quite direct in telling him what he thought of him . Then the same guy was being seen off a lowloader and decided to do his own thing and just about went off the side of the lorry . Needless to say most of my transport guys and crews avoid him like the plague - very dangerous to think you can see more than someone commanding a Vehicke from out side the vehicle . Be careful folks .

[tankbarrell]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

owner, to do as he is directed. Most tank owners tend to think they know best and don't take direction well!
__________________


Speak for yourself Adrian. !

I was, and in 30 years of driving and directing tanks, I've seen a few potential disasters......

[RichardT10829]

Yeah I have no doubt you have seen it all buddy

[Lynn Eades]

And then there were semaphores. Kit for some carriers.

[Colin Alford]

Chris,

I do not know if there is a British manual that gives instructions for ground guides, but this subject in definitely covered in both the 1943 and 1944 editions of the Canadian "Regulations for Drivers of M.T. Vehicles and Universal Carriers and Motorcyclists" and also the "Regulations for Drivers of Armoured Fighting Vehicles and Self Propelled Artillery"

Attached are images of the applicable pages.

Colin

[cpetronis]

Awesome sauce Colin that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot. Now I have to start scouring ebay for my own copy.
In reading the other posts to this thread I agree with pretty much everything I've read. I can understand where a person who's made a major investment in time and money could be inclined to figure they know best and ignore ground guides. Personally, I figure that I can't see or hear anything when driving so better to rely on the man on the ground.
Funny story on that though, I was borrowing a friend's M8 Greyhound for the weekend and had an active duty army Cav officer directing me while maneuvering it back onto my lowboy. He backed me into a tree which deformed the driver side wheel skirt. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/im...milies/doh.gif Luckily the owner was very gracious and understanding about it but I've still never gotten over that one. It's one thing to damage my own vehicle but somebody else's is like a mortal sin.
So that being said, now I try to always use 2 ground guides when backing up. A lot of people laugh at me and say I'm being over cautious but I'd rather not make the same mistake twice. Part of me is always nervous though about running over the guy in the rear even though he shouldn't be standing directly behind the vehicle. Bottom line I need to get me a bicycle. Hard to hurt anybody too badly with that.

Regards,

Chris

[rob love]

Some basic and common sense rules on ground guiding:

1: The guide does not walk backwards while bringing a vehicle towards him. He walks back 20 feet or whatever is appropriate and then guides the vehicle towards him.

2: The guide never stands between the vehicle being guided and an immovable object like a wall or another vehicle.

3: If the operator loses sight of the guide, the operator stops until he can see the guide.

4: guide in the front and if backing up you have a second guide at the rear. Again, not standing right behind the vehicle, but to the side where the front guide can see him and relay the signals.

5: When the arm is outstretched for left or right turn, the operator continues to turn his wheel/tiller bars in that direction until the arm goes down. The wheel (or in the case of the tiller bars, the vehicles orientation) then stays in that position until the guide signals to adjust the wheels or direction. Two hands held up facing each other is an indication to bring the wheels back to straight ahead position. This is said in Colin's fifth photo from the manual, but I wanted to stress it. Some drivers turn hard over as soon as the guide signals a turn, then all the way back as soon as the arm drops. It is very frustrating as a guide.

[Lauren Child]

There are different versions in use internationally, and as Adrian says, some drivers dont take instruction well (whether by lack of training or force of will). Either way it's only good if the other person understands and knows what to do.

Remember we're all human and we all make mistakes.

[Lauren Child]

For a flashback to the past, here are the instructions from Tank Training Volume 1 1930, amendment 1 of 1933

Presumably this is when they were defined, as the unamended manual shows police officers giving normal traffic directions.

[Lauren Child]

This one is clearer, from "Manual of Recovery (c) Recovery Technique Part 2; Practical and Technical Considerations" 7th August 1945.

The only thing I'd add is that :
a) many people use both arms for Advance
b) note the main difference for Halt is the elbows out and hands above eye hieght, while Advance/Reverse are elbows close to the body with hands at or below eye hieght.
c) to indicate a neutral turn bump your fists together twice with elbows out, before indicating direction normally, but remember not all vehicles can neutral steer/pivot steer.
d) some folks use a bent arm and fist (a bit like half of a halt signal) to indicate a change in direction - some would say it's safer as there's less chance of your hand going into something, and you can be more expressive with the fist for a tighter turn. That's probably why most folks use two arms for the Advance signal, so it's not confused.

Hope that helps.

[Jim Burrill]

For dusk/night movements, I have three of these Aircraft mashaling wands in the Humber stowage. Also whistles.

The guy in eye contact with the driver has two wands and uses them as expected to show hand directions. The rear guide uses his as so: a steady pointed up is "whatever you have him doing is fine , not about to crunch anything. A down is a "thumbs down" or stop. ALong with a whistle. (even if the driver can't hear it, the director can.) And then pointing sideways indicates which way the back end needs to go.

[Jim Burrill]

Here is where I got them.

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotS...n_AaAgFA8P8HAQ


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It is GSA compliant for US military use, made in the USA of sturdy gray plastic, and is o-ring sealed for waterproof operation in rainy weather.

Total length is 15 1/4", and it requires two D-Cell batteries (not included).



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[kosbie]

This British Army AFV safety video might be useful? Lame presentation and a lot of it is pretty obvious but so are most accidents in my experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlnveNUd7KY

Rick

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rick

This video has come up before, on other forums, and always raises comments, but it does get across a lot of points in a short time.

The young lady has one role in this video to hold the attention of the young men who are the intended audience.

Many, if not all the points raised about AFV apply equal to military vehicle with limited visibility from the cab. One of the reasons I like driving my Pat 12 with the cab top off you can actually see all the corners of the truck.

Also got a kick out one of the other videos that always comes up with this video it is BAOR British Army Driving in Germany.


Cheers Phil

[Lauren Child]

Originally Posted by Jim Burrill

For dusk/night movements, I have three of these Aircraft mashaling wands in the Humber stowage. Also whistles.

The guy in eye contact with the driver has two wands and uses them as expected to show hand directions. The rear guide uses his as so: a steady pointed up is "whatever you have him doing is fine , not about to crunch anything. A down is a "thumbs down" or stop. ALong with a whistle. (even if the driver can't hear it, the director can.) And then pointing sideways indicates which way the back end needs to go.

It's a good idea, although there's actually a different set of signals for night use that use a normal torch. I can't say I'd want to try them out though, as I'd rather have sufficient light that we can all see what's going on.

[Robin Craig]

There are many very talented and experienced people on this forum, some of whom I have met and many I respect deeply (but don't tell them).

Ground guiding is about communicating, this is a practised art form based around agreed signals.

I am involved with a vehicle collection at work and in my pleasure time other vehicle groups.

The merits of the various signals can be discussed 14 ways to Sunday. My favourite set of signals is becoming what ENFORM uses out west and is detailed here:- http://www.pistonwell.com/irp/irp12_...g_vehicles.pdf

I am responsible in the workplace as a supervisor and as a team member with the hobby.

I agree with others who state that they observe the most danger when owners who operate vehicles do not follow instructions, that hits close to home for me very deeply, I have lived that dream too often.

With the Cold War Collection, that I volunteer with, we hold training weekends and part of that time includes practices on ground guiding with each other to a standard and build the trust and skills needed as part of being a group. We use wheeled and tracked armour and softskins large and small.

Knowing how vehicles handle and what they can do is part of the exercise.

Anyone seen an M113 or an FV432 do a neutral turn?

Ever seen a CVR(T) take a corner in too high a gear and go wide and understand what happened?

Discussion on safety is always good and does the hobby good.

I have as a ground guide watched several people come close to being killed on a number of occasions, it is always distressing and avoidable.

Have a safe weekend

[eddy8men]

formal hand signals are a great place to start but everyone develops their own style after a while. the most important thing is trust between the guy driving and the guy doing the guiding. i always look the driver in the eye and give him obvious firm hand movements. these occasionally turn into a vigorous up and down motion if he keeps turning after i've dropped my hand down

[kevin powles]

Originally Posted by eddy8men

formal hand signals are a great place to start but everyone develops their own style after a while. the most important thing is trust between the guy driving and the guy doing the guiding. i always look the driver in the eye and give him obvious firm hand movements. these occasionally turn into a vigorous up and down motion if he keeps turning after i've dropped my hand down

Hey Rick, I remember a few years being a back stop when your were reversing the cromwell, I thought I'd signal your signal man to stop reversing 5ft early, glad I did as by the time I signalled, he signalled and you stopped was 4ft lol. End up perfect and you avoided crushing your own truck.