11 and 12 cabs

[paul Lincoln]

Can any of you "small detail" gents help me out with something that has cropped up during my research, please?
On studdying various photos of LRDG Ford F30 trucks (starting with the one Kuno rediscovered) I noticed that most have the pull switches on the dash boards. They also, nearly, all have the "over the bumper" type of tow hooks. I spotted that one vehicle in a photo has the later swivel tow eyes.
Is there a date cut off for either of these features, or were they fitted as available? Did any 12 cab models get fitted with Marmon Harrington axles, or was that a strict change over along with the cab type too?
Any informed help would be much appreciated. thank You.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by paul Lincoln

Did any 12 cab models get fitted with Marmon Harrington axles, or was that a strict change over along with the cab type too?
Any informed help would be much appreciated. thank You.

No CMP to my knowledge was ever fitted with Marmon-Herrington Axles. Very early 11 cab Fords had Chev axles as Ford had not finished setting up to do their own front and rear axles for the 4X4 versions other then that Marmon-Herrington were used to convert civilian model 2WD trucks to 4WD. One difference between the CMP type front Axle and the Marmon-Herrington is the diff head is on the opposite side to each other. Hope this helps

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Can I just add that initially it was thought that Ford and GM would share componentry, with one company making certain parts and the other making compatible parts. This mean for example that Ford in Windsor would produce cabs and The McKinnon Industries Ltd axles for front-wheel drive. This turned-out to be impractical given the vagaries of production, shipping and receipt overseas so GM in Oshawa started their own cab production and Ford's axle plant started their own azles/transfer cases etc.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Just to add to the confusion of part sharing parts, to my knowledge all HUPs have Ford front brakes, as do both of my C60 trucks. And the F15A parts book has a numeric listing of nearly two pages of Chevy parts. So there was a significant sharing of parts. I'm sure as vehicles were repaired and overhauled whole assemblies such as front and rear axles crossed over from vehicle to vehicle.

There is of course the wide spread use of Ford V8s as replacements for most anything that moved in North Africa. (see Gregg"s book)

Cheers Phil

[Lynn Eades]

I think I picked up somewhere that Ford made all the CMP brakes.
Richard, can you elaborate?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wonder if Kelsey-Hayes had a Canadian arm? They produced wheels and brakes for Ford of Britain and I can imagine that they also produced for Ford and GM of Canada. The British factory was adjacent to the Ford one at Dagenham.

[Keith Webb]

These appear only on cab 11s as far as I have seen.

I have a towing eye/bumper bracket which was on a cab 12, but that's the only cab12 I've seen like that.

[paul Lincoln]

Not too many people reply to their own threads, I am thinking. Having established that there were no MH axles fitted to 11 cab F30's , but some early Chevs. Can I now pose the question "Did all 11 cab F30's get Chev axles, or were there both sorts fitted?"
It is realy the switch and front bumper part of the question that I am trying to get to the bottom of, although the axle / brake subject seems to have got you thinking. Many thanks for the interest so far. I await further developments!

[cliff]

Originally Posted by paul Lincoln

"Did all 11 cab F30's get Chev axles, or were there both sorts fitted?"

Once Ford started producing their own axles they used them so there would have been both sorts used during construction.

I owned a very early 11 cab Ford with no vents in New Zealand a number of years ago which had been converted by the NZ Army to Ford axles when it was rebuilt in 1953 or there abouts.

Edit Looking through the Ford Factory photos on Service Publications CD the 11 cabs had the towing eyes behind the bumper. Of the few 12 cab photos one dated 1941 showed a 15cwt with the towing eyes behind the bumper but another of an 8cwt did not have any towing eyes at all. I would say that early production cab 12's had some 11 cab parts fitted until supplies were used up.

[Lynn Eades]

The Jeep wheels were also made by Kelsey- Hayes.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am writing from memory but seem to recall that there was concern in the small team from Ford of Canada that were tasked with the designing the DND-pattern trucks that the Ford front axle was not strong enough. In the 2-wheel drive chassis the '40 US COE Ford front axle was used initially.

From my notes I have found:

Chevrolets had conventional banjo type differentials, the Fords had a Timken-type differential which split vertically [“split-type”] because of the use of the Marmon-Herrington [“M.-H.”] front drive set-up which was the transfer case, front axle and differential and Rzeppa constant-velocity universal joint steering ends: the M.-H. system utilised Timken-designed and/or manufactured components though that were similar to those fitted to G.M.C. C.O.E. trucks. However, some Fords used Chevrolet [McKinnon] differentials, and some early build Ford F.15A trucks, F.A.T.s and later Ford F.60Ls used Chevrolet axles. 47 early Ford F.15A trucks had a G.M. banjo-type rear axle and Ford split-type front unit. The G.M. system was designed in-house, possibly through the Pontiac and Flint Plants in conjunction with Chevrolet’s axle division: in the U.S. Chevrolet’s axle plant produced all G.M.C. and Chevrolet transfer cases, and used Bendix-Weiss universal joint steering ends instead of Rzeppa. Transmission components were however produced by McKinnon Industries Limited, St. Catherines, Ontario, under licence where required.

Rzeppa design Universal Joint and axle shafts as fitted by Ford to the front of 4 x 4 trucks were interchangeable with the G.M.-used Bendix-Weiss, but the D.N.D. in Ottawa suggested in 1940 that both right- and left-assemblies of the same type be fitted rather than mix-and-match.

I will have a look at any photos I have of early F30 front views.

As regards wheels, this is the informatiom from the DND papers relating to the 1938 15-cwt trucks that in the event Ford declined to build:

. Wheels for the 15-cwt. Trucks were of a size and type not at that time in commercial use in Canada, thought they conformed to W.D. specifications and were especially suitable for D.N.D. requirements. A review of the Canadian automotive industry had established that there was only the Kelsey Wheel Company Limited of Windsor who were equipped to produce automotive wheels. The company was approached by the D.N.D. a short time before and quotations received for special wheels for the trucks. The Ottawa Car Manufacturing Company Limited were also given an opportunity to quote, but had not at that time done so. The quotations received indicated that production facilities of the special wheels could be established at reasonable cost. The Kelsey company were in possession of the main items required for production of the wheels but would need to make special tool equipment and the cost of the tooling would have to be absorbed in the initial order for wheels. It therefore appeared to be best to place responsibility with the vehicle manufacturing companies. .......

As regards brake drums, there is no evidence in the papers that anyone produced them for Ford; in fact Windsor quoted a figure to produce special drum sizes that the DND would have to pay the machinery and tooling costs for, so may i suggest that Ford produced their own castings?

[paul Lincoln]

Me again ! We are getting a few sightings of 11 cab features on 12 cab vehicles, but not the other way round. Anyone who is farmiliar with the book by Alastair Timpson called "In Rommel's Back Yard" will know that there is a F30 pictured on the cover. It is a Long Range Desert Group vehicle fitted with 5 assorted machine guns. The photo is from the IWM, London. On close inspection, there are 12 cab, swivel type towing eyes on the front bumper (fitted mid way up the bumper). I have only ever seen reference to 70 Ford F30 trucks going to LRDG in March 1941. These all seem to have Chev axles and from most photos seem to be 11 cabs. This vehicle has Chev axles. Has the bumper been swapped? Why were the 70 F30's fitted with early Chev axles if they arrived late on in 11 cab production, or even early in 12 cab times?
Recently I have spotted switches, not push/ pull type in a photo and now these later towing eyes.
Did LRDG get some more F30's later? All serial numbers that I have come across are much the same. e.g. 4406012 4406114.
Many thanks for continued comment.

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I think I picked up somewhere that Ford made all the CMP brakes.
Richard, can you elaborate?

No the Rear brakes on HUPs and I believe C15s had Chevy brakes which just adds to the confusion, my HUP has those star wheel steel end caps without the rubber boot.

When your new to the game as I was then having clearly Chevy rear brakes on a Chevy truck made sense but then I could not fine the front brake parts in any Chevy parts book. Wasn't until I took the shoes of the front cleaned them and found the Ford logo that the light went on.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

In most instances where I have seen GM front axles on early Fords they are the early massive HD cast Gm axle which has no bolted cover on the front.... and they feature extra cast ribbing for strength......

Those same HD cast axles are also found on early 1942 cab 13 Ford trucks and also on early cab 13 Chev trucks..... yet other Ford that we have observed have regular cab 13 Chev axles front and rear.....

The question remains which ones are original and how much mix and match have occurred in the last 60 years.

I have only seen one very early CGT cab 11 with both front and rear HD GM cast axles...... and have pictures to show.

Then of course you have all the Aussie PE-197 contract C60 with C15a small axles and 16 inch rims..... built in 45 with early rectangualr civilian instrument cluster and a week before the same model built with round instruments.... assembled from leftover parts or later retro fitted with available parts from stores.

On the rims manufacturing...... was there not a picture of a giant press (120 tons ?? ) standing 3 storey high ...flywheel half under the floor ...installed at a GM plant that struck wheel rim halves in one big bang !!!!! ....operators are seen loading flat blank steel circles...... seen it somewhere but can't remember where.... may it was K-H

Bob C.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think that Oshawa plant made their own wheels and not McKinnons who of course made axles, transfer cases, radiators, AC-Delco parts, and engine castings.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Early in the war a lot of Ford rear ends were lost at sea so they used Chevy rears for a while. I have an early Cab 11 C15 (no cab air vents) with the towing eyes behind the bumper and another with the swivel types on the front of the bumper. My C8 has the swivels and some I've seen don't. I haven't seen any Cab 12s with the eyes behind the bumper.

[Howard]

Originally Posted by cletrac

...I haven't seen any Cab 12s with the eyes behind the bumper.

My little F15 #12 cab has the #11 style towing rings (behind the bumper) and also #11 style engine covers (they bolt into place, rather than clip in). My one remaining door also has an inner skin...
What we'd call a "Bitza", but I doubt that anything has been retro-fitted.

[cletrac (RIP)]

"My little F15 #12 cab has the #11 style towing rings (behind the bumper) and also #11 style engine covers (they bolt into place, rather than clip in). My one remaining door also has an inner skin..."

Howard, so what makes you think it's a 12 cab then?

[Howard]

Originally Posted by cletrac

Howard, so what makes you think it's a 12 cab then?

Front panels are #12, ie. 'Alligator' bonnet (hood), Nose Vents, Tilting Windscreen...
Like I said, a bitza. I guess it was built right on the change-over of production from 11's to 12's?!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I can understand why there would be a using-up of parts on the changeover from # 11 to # 12 cabs. Regrtettably I only have data on the turning-point for Chevrolets.