Looking for Canadian M151A2 Pictures....

Scott Bentley · #1 25-07-08, 17:19

Hello everyone,

I'm soon going to be starting a Restoration of a Canadian 1974 M151A2.

I'm looking for old photos of these "things" while they were in service to help me settle on Paint and Configuration. I rarely saw any photos of them in my Units' archives (2 CER) as we used the M38A1 during the same time frame, so its tricky getting started.

I will most likely use 22 Fd Engr Sqn (Independent) CME as the Unit for actually marking the 74 Pattern, as it was a Unit I have served in (4 ESR during my time) that had previously used M151A2s, but I would love to see some others for their Paint Schemes, Comms Installations etc. For what its worth, i'm aiming at setting it up as a Sqn Sgt Majors' vehicle (more coffee pots than radios)

If there is anyone out there that has photos of a correct Canadian Resto that would be appreciated as well.

Any other tidbits would be very handy for me.

my e-mail

Thank you

Scotty B

rob love · #2 26-07-08, 05:55

Origionally the M151A2s were issued in the semi gloss US olive green. The cam patterns were later applied at the unit levels. The levels of proffesionalis of the paint ranged from spray guns to 4" paint brushes.

The cam pattern was the same as that detailed for the M38A1s. In fact, if you look at the cam diagram, the line drawing of the jeep is more of an M38 than any other 1/4 ton.

There may be photos out there of M151s in cam patterns ranging from slightly different to totally different, but the regs were that the pattern was that detailed in the manual of cam and concealment, and the same cam patterns could also be found in the FMCOs.

I'll dig out my Jeep cam pattern tomorrow and post it.

Colin Macgregor Stevens · #3 26-07-08, 07:12

When Canada bought the M151A2 MUTT, they came without a roll cage. Canada later added roll cages that differed from the US ROPS (Roll Over Protection) kit which also had the web netting on the sides.

Usually the vehicles were plain green until about 1970, then the multicolour camouflage was introduced and the markings changed to the subdued style. I have the official camo painting and marking instructions.

You will see pictures of white painted MUTTs in the desert (see link below) but these are earlier flat fender M151 supplied by US to UN and not Canadian purchases (as far as is known).

Some MUTTs were used by Canadians in Vietnam in 1974 with ICCS. These were dark in colour and had a big stripe painted across the hood. I suspect they were supplied "in country" as the US vets would say.

So your basic choice is PERIOD, LOCATION and UNIT.

If you find any markings on your MUTT, RECORD THEM !!!!!!! Even if you chose to paint it to represent another unit of your choice, these markings are usually the ONLY record of the history of vehicle.

Look for the CFR number. It is the KEY identity to your vehicle.

http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

[A good and interesting site but it perpetuates the myth that calls the M151A2 MUTT a "jeep". It is NOT a jeep even though the Canadian Forces and its soldiers often called it a jeep. The MUTT was an independent design that simply resembles a jeep in size and 4x4 but it is not part of the jeep family.

rob love · #4 26-07-08, 14:06

If you are going to restore it to factory issue, you would also not have the heater kit in it. Those were installed at the various 2nd line base maintenance workshops after the trucks were brought into Canada.

Scott Bentley · #5 27-07-08, 17:55

Thanks for the replies..

My focus is on returning the "74 Pattern" to "In Service" configuration for the mid 80's in Canada, prior to replacement by the Iltis, when one could argue all of the TB Mods and Improvements would have been completed.

My other reason for choosing 22 Fd Sqn (Aside from being a Sapper myself) is that this A2 originated in Gagetown NB prior to disposal. If they VMO'd SMP Vehicles between Units in the 80's like we do now, its entirely possible that it may have served in 22 Fd Sqn. I'm praying i'll find a Lazy E under that paint somewhere

The 74 A2 is actually Mike McKinleys, which i'm in the process of acquiring. Mike has done a tremendous job gathering all sorts of info on this A2 as well the 74 Pattern in general. The history of this A2 is well preserved.

I am also acquiring a second 74 A2 from Alberta that will become the Tub donor for the project. It is clearly marked as the DCO's Vehicle from 1 SVC BN. Unfortunately, it is a mechanical basket case, but has a nice rust free, albeit cut Tub. I have saved it from what would have most likely become a low budget ATV for a hunter.

My questions concerning paint are pointed at whether or not these would have been painted with CARC Paint at some point prior to withdrawal from service, and what the "Approved" cam pattern would have been. If not in the CARC Paint, what are the 3 Colors and Paint Type that would have made up the Cam Pattern? Also, many of the Canadian A2's i've seen have a much lighter color Green in the Interior that is different from the exterior colors. I've attached a pic below? Is this a Depot applied paint color, or something that was done at the Unit? It apears to be similar to what we have inside most Armoured Vehicles and CP Boxes currently in service.

My other concern is locating and placement of Stencils, Decals and Stickers under the Bonnet and on the Dash, that would have been somewhat generic to the Vehicle.

If I understand correctly, the TAC Signs and C/S Stenciling styles should be relatively unchanged from what we use now.

When it comes to painting Vehicles and the CF I am amazed and disappointed. Whenever I worked around US Units, I always appreciated how their equipment more often than not, sported fresh paint done "professionally". Other than when receiving a vehicle out of the Depot or back from Refurb, we often resorted to touching up ours with whatever we could find in the paint locker that was purchased locally, and in colors not specifically for the military.

Thanks again.

Scotty

Ed Storey · #6 27-07-08, 20:24

Here are a couple of images from my collection, I have dozens of images of M151A2s that I took during the 1970s and 1980s. I am not sure if 22 Fd Sqn used the M151A2 as not every unit in the CF had them and to complicate matters not every unit within a brigade was using the same 'Jeep'. For example, within Engineer regiments, I know that 2CER in Petawawa did not have the M151A2, but 5RGC did. Even within the SSF, 2 Fd Amb used the M151A2, but 8CH did not.

Scott Bentley · #7 27-07-08, 20:36

Thanks very much for the photos Ed.

If you can spare the time to upload or e-mail some more that would be fantastic.

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find snaps of these. I never had a chance to look in the museum in Petawawa before I left. I have a few contacts up that way that i'm going to try and contact.

The one MUTT has very clear markings, but I can't lower myself to keeping it marked with Hollywood Bde Svc Bn Markings

The other (Mikes) from Gagetown could have been with 8 CH, W Battery, 2 RCR or 22 Fd Sqn. I'll have to ask if he was able to narrow it down.

Hopefully 22 Fd Sqn did in fact use 151's.

Were M151A2s' used in CFE?

servicepub (RIP) · #8 28-07-08, 00:56

One from the ICCS in Vietnam and the other a UNEF peacekeeping photo don't really satisfy your request but I figured "What the Hell, where else am I going to show these?"

rob love · #9 28-07-08, 01:42

From my early days as a militiaman attached to 8CH/RCD gagetown, we had only one M38A1Cdn2 as I recall for the COs rover. But Couger support squadron next door had a mixed bag of both M151s and M38A1s.

CARC did not come into play during the life of the M151A2 in Canada. Back then the paint was IRR (Infr red reflective) It came in 3 clours with NSN of 8110-21-880-9729, 9730 and 9750 (or was it 96XX? A bit of time has passed and the NSNs I committed to memory are starting to become hazy.). The three colours are olive green govt spec #503-321, Black govt spec 512-301, and green 503-319. There was a tan/white colour used on some of them in lieu of the olive on the earliest cam jobs, but by 1976 this colour was phased out near as I can tell.

For conversion of these colours to US specs, check out this webpage: http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colou.../army_clr.html

There was a CARC introduced in the mid to late 80s in Canada, but while it did not contain lead, it turned out that the formula and the isocyanates were deadly. It was soon dropped and the US formulas for CARC were adopted. These are also quite hazardous to the health when sprayed, and also if any grinding or burning (welding) of the paint is done. That is why you will see the "CARC" letters on many items like cable reels or radio trays...as a warning about the health hazard of the paint. We were supposed to strip the paint with strippers before doing any welding on an area of a vehicle painted with CARC.

M151A2s were in use in CFE. I think I even have something around with the quantities that were over there.

rob love · #10 28-07-08, 03:32

Here are the photos of the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles.

In these patterns, #1= olive drab, #2 = black, and #3 = flat (forest) green.

I also have the patterns for the other wheeled vehicles (including trailers) handy, and the patterns for others are buried a bit deeper in my mess of paper in case anyone wants to see those too.

As Scotty mentions, most of the other markings remain the same as used today. These include the callsigns, the unit/brigade identifier, the Canada flags front and rear, and the tire pressure markings over the wheel wells. Decals to be found on the Cdn Mutts included the battery decal, usually located under the hood (disconnect battery before servicing generator or regulator), the "turn off radios before starting or stopping engine", and there was also an antifreeeze decal under there somewhere. All Cdn Mutts also had a Ziebart decal on the windshield frame along with the US "a good driver always...." but these were normally torn off or painted over after a while.

mike mckinley · #11 28-07-08, 04:27

the 151 in the second picture must have taken a hell of a smash..notice the bend in the drivers side fender..looks like the whole front is bent upwards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Here are a couple of images from my collection, I have dozens of images of M151A2s that I took during the 1970s and 1980s.

rob love · #12 28-07-08, 06:18

Here is a photo of one of the 30 that I bought out of Shilo back in 1987. They cost $110 bucks each, and all the bodies had to go to the crusher and their destruction witnessed by the CADC guys.

Almost all came with a full tank of fuel. They all had a red X painted across the hoods so the supply guys could recognize that these ones weren't supposed to be sold off in the normal manner.

30 doesn't sound like a lot until you actually have to move them. As to stripping them, I had it down to a science where I could strip one bare in 4 hours. That let me get 4 done in a day.

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 28-07-08, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

A good and interesting site

Colin, thanks for the compliment, and for you help. When I initially published that web page some 6 years ago -with help from the very same people contributing here - very little seemed to be known about the "74 pattern jeep" in Canadian service (at least to me!). I'm glad this and other forums have yielded more information and photos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Macgregor Stevens

but it perpetuates the myth that calls the M151A2 MUTT a "jeep". It is NOT a jeep even though the Canadian Forces and its soldiers often called it a jeep. The MUTT was an independent design that simply resembles a jeep in size and 4x4 but it is not part of the jeep family.

You are aware that years before the Bantam/Willys quarter ton truck was named jeep, or let alone Willys trademarking "Jeep", this nickname was applied to utility vehicles being able to do things deemed impossible. Therefore I chose to use the use the nickname jeep, just like many soldiers have and will do, when referring to a small 4WD vehicle. This has nothing to do with the use of the "Jeep" trademark - I´m sure you´ll agree today´s Jeep is much further away from the WW2 jeep than the M151-series. . . .

Best regards,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 28-07-08, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

I'm soon going to be starting a Restoration of a Canadian 1974 M151A2.

Hi Scotty, good to hear you will be restoring an original Canadian M151A2 back to Canadian specs. There are far too few of these out there! I was going to post a link to my site, but I see others have posted new material already.

Best of luck with your resto, I hope you finish what Mike started, and share the result with us!

Thanks,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #15 28-07-08, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by servicepub

One from the ICCS in Vietnam and the other a UNEF peacekeeping photo don't really satisfy your request but I figured "What the Hell, where else am I going to show these?"

Thanks for posting them here, Clive!

That UNEF peacekeeping photo was made during UNEF II, Golan Heights, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

rob love · #16 28-07-08, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Colin, thanks for the compliment, and for you help. When I initially published that web page some 6 years ago -with help from the very same people contributing here - very little seemed to be known about the "74 pattern jeep" in Canadian service (at least to me!). I'm glad this and other forums have yielded more information and photos.

You are aware that years before the Bantam/Willys quarter ton truck was named jeep, or let alone Willys trademarking "Jeep", this nickname was applied to utility vehicles being able to do things deemed impossible. Therefore I chose to use the use the nickname jeep, just like many soldiers have and will do, when referring to a small 4WD vehicle. This has nothing to do with the use of the "Jeep" trademark - I´m sure you´ll agree today´s Jeep is much further away from the WW2 jeep than the M151-series. . . .

Best regards,
Hanno

It was more than just soldiers who referred to any small utility vehicle as a Jeep. The Iltis was constantly referred to as "Iltis Jeep" in official documents from the Life Cycle managers in Ottawa. I never minded that the M151s were referred to as Jeep, but the Iltis thing kind of irked me. They certainly did not have my favorite characteristic of the Jeep: simplicity.

Scott Bentley · #17 28-07-08, 18:45

Wow....

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

The collection of pictures is a massive help. From what I have seen so far in a couple of dozen photos, is that almost no two are exactly the same when it comes to paint, markings etc. I'd imagine at the Unit level there was some standard, but outside of that, its a mixed bag.

With regards to Mikes A2, the source for my resto, i'm going to go ahead with my plan for 22 Fd Sqn marking. If I can find anything under the paint relating to CFE, I may go that route. At the end of the Day, a Sapper is going drive a Sappers Vehicle

i'm sure the retired CF members around here can understand that.

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Rob, much appreciated the info on paint. Wasn't sure about the CARC, I started in the early 90s, so I wasn't entirely sure when it came into existence. Your right about the issues with handling it, no change there even today. When I first joined we wondered what it meant and why it was stenciled on everything.

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

My goal is to ensure that everything that goes back into this unit originally came throught the CF supply system where at all possible. So if your sitting on A2 parts, I may be dropping you a line

Whats the best route for getting this back to bare metal? Would it be too risky to sandblast it?

Thanks again

Scotty B

rob love · #18 28-07-08, 20:28

Sandblasting has it's advantages and disadvantages. It will certainly find the weaknesses in the body: ie rust. Thats a good thing. Once sandblasted, the metal is ready to patch. But don't leave the metal bare for more than a day or two or it will start to rust.

The biggest problem with sandblasting it that you will strip bare areas where you can't get the paint back into. Underneath the vehicle, you will also remove what little Zeibart remains.

Regarding the "unit level" standards, the standards were actually dictated both in the FMC standing orders, and later in the Brigade standing orders. Units were supposed to follow these guidlelines, but of course, with the long chains of commands, they could get distorted on the way down.

I know in the last unit I was in, I ordered a few hundred of the red Canada Flags to install on our vehicles as per the Brigade orders. The installation was nixed by slightly higher up (MWO) who felt the red was not a desirable colour on the cammed vehicles.

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

Hanno Spoelstra · #19 28-07-08, 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

See Support Maple Leaf Up!, that is, if you weren´t joking

Quote:

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

Sure, but I don't think I can add anymore than noted on my web page. Most if not all info on CFR's was provided by Rob Love.

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/

Hanno Spoelstra · #20 28-07-08, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by servicepub

the other a UNEF peacekeeping photo

Note how well that M151A2 is painted white. Suspension, inside of body, wheels - this was not a quick mask-and-spray-over job.

I know today vehicles are delivered ex-factory in a UN white paint scheme, but these are often (semi-)civilian vehicles manufactured on assembly lines where they are used to paint vehicles in more than one colour

And oh, you guys are aware of the ex-Canadian UN Forces 74 Pattern Jeep surviving in Sweden, aren´t you?

H.

rob love · #21 29-07-08, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sure, but I don't think I can add anymore than noted on my web page. Most if not all info on CFR's was provided by Rob Love.

Re the CFRs, there is no correlation between CFRs and serial numbers on the M151A2s. I have a list of the 30 serial numbers of the ones I bought along with their CFRs. While Canada bought only 935 Mutts, the serial numbers range over several thousand just in the small sampling that I have. The CFRs all should be in the 74-09XXX range. The M38A1Cdn3 crossed into the 09XXX numbers, but just barely.

As can be seen by some of the numbers I gave Hanno to use on his site, while the CFRs are sequential (09151, 09152, 09153) their serial numbers (43882, 43728, 43839) are nowhere near sequential.

Scott Bentley · #22 29-07-08, 19:45

I know where your coming from regarding the paint. I just find it interesting though, how few actually got painted correctly. Its not surprising considering we used to make our own Tac Sign and C/S Stencils right in our lines. It was often done as part of "Extra Duties"

I'm still exploring the options for stripping the body. I have battled rust on every Jeep i've ever owned. I really want to make sure that there is no trace left on the Tub prior to paint, and also identify any "hidden" repairs that may need to be done to the skin. Aside from Sandblasting, I can't think of any other economic way. I used Wire Wheels with a 5" Grinder on my last project, and it was extremely time consuming and dirty. The thought of dropping it off to a pro who is setup for it, is kind of appealing. I'm trying to find a local shop who does the odd classic car and understands the end state for the Body. I will try and expose some markings in the key areas, prior to blasting it mind you.

Any of the cold working Dolly and Hammer repairs I can do to the body would be prior to Sandblasting eg, pounding out small dents and minor straightening. Anything requiring heat, cutting and welding would be done at the shop right after Sandblasting. That would be followed by Red Oxide Priming and an OD Base Coat.

Whats the opinion on Crown Spraying? That was my plan for protecting it in the hard to reach areas after the Ziebart is blown away.

As for a CFR, hopefully I can find something somewhere on either of the 2, and i'll go from there. I don't want to end up duplicating someone thats all.

Scott Bentley · #23 29-07-08, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

See Support Maple Leaf Up!, that is, if you weren´t joking

Done... I don't mind shelling out a bit for decent Tech Support

Hanno Spoelstra · #24 29-07-08, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):

As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Regards,
Hanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

Scott Bentley · #25 29-07-08, 22:39

I know in my case paint is probably a long time off yet as I don't have the facilities here to start this, but as they say, "The Devil is in the details", which is why i'm trying to hoard info and research now so everything goes fairly smooth later on.

When it comes to the paint scheme its tricky. I understand where Rob is coming from with what is correct, but from everything i've seen so far, more often than not, they were not correct. My goal is to produce a "While in Service" rather than an "As Issued" resto, so its a tough call for me.

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

rob love · #26 30-07-08, 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):

As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Hanno
I see three colors in the cam job shown in your illustration. The olive drab is on the front cowl as it should be, and the forest green is at the rear half of the driver's opening. Text book cam job (on the side anyway).

Ed Storey · #27 30-07-08, 01:38

Here is an image of an M151A2 leading the division roll-past during Exercise RV81.

Scott Bentley · #28 30-07-08, 04:52

Thanks again Ed.. Much appreciated. Any relation to Ralph?

Rob, I was reading some of your older posts about the paint colors. Were you able to find a source in Canada at a reasonable price? I see Willys Acres sells paint, and is willing to bring in other codes other than the WWII stuff. Anyone ever bought those paint codes from him?

rob love · #29 30-07-08, 06:30

Scotty
For the black I spray on tremclad flat back reduced with paint thinner. For the olive drab I have been using one of the shades from Rapco, which sells the Gillespie brand of paint. I think it was 33070 I was using, but I would have to confirm this. The paint chart on this site: http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colou.../army_clr.html gives 34082 as the closest but poor match. I think the 34052 would come close to a substitute for the flat green colour, although the cross ref chart gives 34079 as a direct replacement.
I order my paint from RAPCO (4 gallons at a time) and have it delivered to a border shipping service. It is about an hours drive to go pick it up, but when you consider that by the time I get the paint home I only have about $45 into each gallon, the extra time is worth it. Rapco's paint is also fresh. I bought some paint from a source in Winnipeg only to find that it was about 5 years old and had possibly been frozen.

Hanno Spoelstra · #30 30-07-08, 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

Scotty,

And at the end of the day, it´s your truck, so you can paint and mark it up in the way you feel is most appropriate. Judging by what you have written here alone, no-one can claim you did not do you homework and slapped on the first tin of army green paint you came across.

H.