CMP wheel details

[Tony Smith]

For no particular reason (except to dispel the rumour that CMP wheel rims were cast!), I thought I'd share these detail pics of some rims I recently cleaned up.
I have a couple of rims in 16 inch and 20 inch by both General Motors and Kelsey, and noticed that while generally similar, they bore differences. Oddly, I've only ever seen dates of 1940, 41 and 42.

Kelsey stamped the outer half of their rims.....

...While General Motors stamped both the inner and outer halves:

[Tony Smith]

We have discussed before that these rims have a 0 degree bead seat, so to prevent the tyre from spinning on the rim, a series of notches are stamped into the rim flange to grip the inflated tyre. On many current wheels these notches are completely rusted away because their position makes a great mud and water collection point.

[Tony Smith]

Both the 16 inch and 20 rims are formed from 11/32 steel plate. The General Motors rims look to be stamped/forged as they have crimp marks around the rim flange similar to die marks (on both 16 and 20 inch rim sizes). Kelsey rims don't have these marks, and while they may also have been stamped or forged to form the rim, they appear to have been finished by rolling or spinning.

[Brian Gough]

Tony, a very informative post, thanks.

On the back cover of the sheet music for the General Motors film "On To Victory" there is a picture captioned: "Giant presses stamping out wheels."

Another GM of Canada brochure at that time said:

"Giant presses speed delivery. Every 24 hours, these mammoth presses can stamp out 1,000 wheels for army vehicles - they shape steel plates into wheels under pressure of 1,500 tons!"


Brian

[mike mckinley]

hi brian

if this is the same picture i'm thinking of, the press stood about three stories high?? i wonder how many fingers were lost in the process?

mike

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Tony

Your pictures reminded me of my wheels when I sandblasted them.... some Kelsey some GM.

Is it possible that GM did all the early years...40-41-42 then the Kelsy plant took over....??

Now the hunt is on for 1939......43, 44 and 45.....

Anybody else has wheels stamp pictures to trade???

[Bob Carriere]

Tony

Hereunder is a snap shot of my oldest tire from my cab 11.... I have not had the heart to take it apart as it still hold 50 pounds of 1940 Canadian air.... cracks are 1/4 wide and 1/2 deep.

Will have to clean it up to see if there are any old stamps on it. The other 3 tires are dated 1943 and surely are not original to my 40 cab 11. The rims I am using are from assorted cab 13 cmps and usually badly rusted. I used a rural tractor tire shop to remove the tires... they had to use a 40 ton press to remove the tires from the rims. The rubber and fabric was welded to the rims.

Cleaning up was using a air powered needle descalling gun to peel back the rubber abd fabric that was left attached to the rim.
My better ones still had the ribbing you showed... the needle gun was followed by sandblasting.

And old guy showed my how to ring them with a hammer.... if you get a flat tone better to discard as it is probably cracked.

My new Army NDT Canadian surplus 9:00x16 fitted like a glove mainly due to metal removed by cleaning up and the slick black POR 15 paint I had applied on all sides.

Can hardly wait for the Warm weather to come back.

1943 tire... : This is what it looked like after de-rimming....

..and the rim looked... like a basket case...... Oh YES..... I did wear hearing protectors when using the descaling gun....... neighbours came over they thought I was beating the begeez out of a cow bell......

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Excellent subject, Tony, and great pictures!

Originally posted by Tony Smith
We have discussed before that these rims have a 0 degree bead seat, so to prevent the tyre from spinning on the rim, a series of notches are stamped into the rim flange to grip the inflated tyre.

Didn't we find out, due to Mike Kelly's measurements of 9.00 X 16 U.S. versus British wheels, it isn't so much a case of the 0° versus 5° degree bead angles, but the considerable difference in bead diameter?

H.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Didn't we find out, due to Mike Kelly's measurements of 9.00 X 16 U.S. versus British wheels, it isn't so much a case of the 0° versus 5° degree bead angles, but the considerable difference in bead diameter?

Quite so. I recommend trimming a 1/16th of an inch or so from the bead of any U.S. 9:00 X 16 NDT tire installed on a CMP rim. I didn't and have already learned to regret it. The tyres on my C15 had been replaced long ago by Goodyear 9:00 X 16 NDT's. When It came time to replace those tyres, I couldn't remove them from the rims. Taking them to a tyre store didn't help either. Their bead breaker was useless against the relentless grip of the NDT's on the rims. Finally I had to cut as much of the tyre away as possible, and then burn away sufficient rubber to get access to the cable embedded in the bead and labouriously cut through it. Once the cable was cut, the tyre was easily removed. I sand blasted, primed and painted the rims and installed the new tyres, using a solution made from vegetable oil soap. not silicone as per manufacturer's recommendations to ease installation. I didn't trim the bead as the tyres seated themselves nicely with air pressure. A few weeks after installing the new tyres I woke up one morning to find my truck had a flat, so I removed the wheel to fix the tube. I figured being on only a few weeks the tyres should fall off the rims, right? Wrong! Same problem. The bead was solid on the rim and I was thinking "Crap!" how do I get this off to fix the flat. Fortunately, I found that the back half of the rim wasn't stuck and after flipping the wheel over I was able to access the tube. Of course, now I wonder if the other rims have both halves stuck to the new tyres and if I'll be able to repair them should they spring a leak. Next set of tyres, I'll take the time to trim any U.S. made tyres before installing them on Canadian rims.

Lessons learned.

CHIMO!

[cletrac (RIP)]

Tires not coming off the rim easily isn"t a new problem as shown by this picture. It's an interesting approach to the problem. When all else fails just apply more power!

Linked from Lend us a hand, Mate!

[Phil Waterman]

He must be the grandfather of somebody in this hobby. Standing there watching the insanity with a beer in hand. Probably saying something like "pull it just a little more". Can you imagine what will happen to all that stretch energy when something does let go.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by cletrac
Tires not coming off the rim easily isn"t a new problem as shown by this picture. It's an interesting approach to the problem. When all else fails just apply more power!

Great pic Dave! Those soldiers are ignoring the number one rule when putting great strain on a cable...Place a tarp over it!
this pic kinds reminds me of the pat answer to:

Question: "How tight do you want this bolt?"

Answer: "A quarter of a turn before it snaps!"





CHIMO!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I'd hate to see where that chain and cable ended up once the rim broke friction...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1937

... Wheels for the 15-cwt. trucks were of a size and type not at that time in commercial use in Canada, though they conformed to WD specifications and were especially suitable for DND requirements. A review of the Canadian automotive industry had established that there was only the Kelsey Wheel Company Limited of Windsor who were equipped to produce automotive wheels. The company was approached by the DND a short time before and quotations received for special wheels for the trucks. The Ottawa Car Manufacturing Company Limited were also given an opportunity to quote, but had not at that time done so. The quotations received indicated that production facilities of the special wheels could be established at reasonable cost. The Kelsey company were in possession of the main items required for production of the wheels but would need to make special tool equipment and the cost of the tooling would have to be absorbed in the initial order for wheels. It therefore appeared to be best to place responsibility with the vehicle manufacturing companies. Four hundred (400) wheels would be necessary to meet requirements for the 70 trucks including spares and other experimental vehicles envisaged.

The Director of Contracts at the DND then formally wrote to Ford and GM of Canada requesting quotations for 26 and 25 15-cwt. Trucks on 14 January 1938. The request included various drawings governing the design and supply of the special wheels, with a conventional style side-locking ring. It was subsequently decided that a wheel constructed of two separate steel pressings held together by bolts with countersunk heads could be supplied at a price lower than the conventional type of wheel. The companies were then asked to consider including wheels consisting of steel pressings [Type ‘B’ wheel] rather than of conventional design. New specifications were then lodged to cover the Type B wheels that Kelsey Wheel Company Limited of Windsor were prepared to quote on tooling costs and cost of supplying wheels [in quantity production]

1939:

One vehicle was to be fitted with 13.50 x 16 tyres and the other 9.00 x 16 tyres, single wheels all round. These specifications were presented to Armstrong [of GM] as an ideal to be aimed for and a formal response in writing was promised. However, Carr [Colonel Carr, DND as he then was]envisaged a difficulty with the production of the wheels for the 9.00 x 16-inch tyres as the offset required on the front axle was very large. The double-flanged wheel as produced by Kelsey [Kelsey Wheel Company Limited, Windsor, Ontario] would not meet requirements. There was however a possible solution as India had ordered on their truck the fitment of 13.50 x 16-inch tyres and had told GM that they were to proceed with the obtaining of this equipment. This item had held up the production of the truck for India for some time as it was thought initially that the fitting of a wheel of this diameter would be impossible. The standard brake drum was about 14-inches in diameter, though after further study in conjunction with Timken, it had been decided to fit an 11 to 12-inch brake drum that would take a 16-inch wheel. If the spider of such a wheel was produced then in order to convert it to use with a 9.00 x 16-inch tyre would simply require the importation of the rim from [Dunlop?] England. It was further understood that 13.50 x 16 tyres were by then obtainable in the US and that the Dominion Rubber Company Limited were also about ready to start Canadian production as well

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

LMS railway company, around 1942

http://www.chrishodgephotos.co.uk/pixcma/aam425.jpg

[Richard Farrant]

My Bedford QL has some Canadian 20" wheels on it, a throwback of when it served in Denmark no doubt, they would have got mixed up with CMP, etc. The rims are all marked "RF" so could have been for armoured vehicles. They are marked with the makers initials "KH" for Kelsey-Hayes and dated either 1943 or 1944.

The 16" wheels with either zero degrees or 5 degrees, I am sure only applies to 16" and not 20". Cannot remember where I got this from though

Richard

[Bob Carriere]

In the tire tug of war picture,,,, behind the beer guzzling soldier... that cab 11/12 trcuk seem to have a extra long fuel tank.... am I mistaken?? did some truck have extra large fuel tank ...maybe for North Africa???

Just curious??.....looks like a C or F 60........

Peter..... any pictures from when you were building the box for your cab 12???

Pitfalls.. things to avoid....... suggestions... how you would do it now if you had to do it again.... any drawings or measurements available....... I am interested since I wil have to repro mine..... using to old boxes as reference.

Bob C.

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
In the tire tug of war picture,,,, behind the beer guzzling soldier... that cab 11/12 trcuk seem to have a extra long fuel tank.... am I mistaken?? did some truck have extra large fuel tank ...maybe for North Africa???

When I blow the photo up (LOL not the tyre the photo ) it shows a normal sized tank and an extra long tool box behind it.

Cheers
Cliff

[Tony Smith]

Didn't the Ford Factory archive pics that Clive recently had on his website show a modified vehicle for India that had four fuel tanks? That pic was taken in Libya in 1941, so it is possible it's an Indian Army vehicle.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
My new Army NDT Canadian surplus 9:00x16 fitted like a glove mainly due to metal removed by cleaning up and the slick black POR 15 paint I had applied on all sides.

The rims are all finished now, it's just a matter of a quick call to the MRF tyre distributor and........SPLUTTER!!!
The distributor says (due in part to the awareness and interest generated on this website) that the 0 deg bead version of their NDMS tyres are not in stock and have been on backorder for some buyers since last August.
(Only 2 days into Autumn and the leaves are starting to fall )

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I'd hate to see where that chain and cable ended up once the rim broke friction...

Geoff - People don't understand the energy involved when something like this takes place.

[Max Hedges]

On Keiths Old CMP site he has a few photos of cmp rims under the heading CMP WHEELS and TYRES.
Max

[Bob Carriere]

Phil

Did you buy that cheap hook at the same place as the Class 5 cheap bolts??????


Sorry I could not resist....


Cliff

.....thanks for checking... for some reason when I enlarge on the ACDSee the picture gets too grainy and does not make sense anymore.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Did you buy that cheap hook at the same place as the Class 5 cheap bolts??????

YUP

10,000 truck pulling + 6,000 plow truck stuck in snow bank/6,000 lb tow cable= pop

Got a bunch of them cheap few years ago before I had big truck

Cheers Phil

[oztankboy]

Just found this pic taken at one of the Australian Ford plants during WW2.

Phil...

[david moore]

Just thought I'd add a photo of one of my 9.00 x 13 wheels from my '41 Cab 12 F8 - Kelsey Canada 1941 - but how come it's stamped 6.50/13 and not 9.00/13? The wheels still had the (original?) 900 x 13 sand tires on them.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by david moore
- but how come it's stamped 6.50/13 and not 9.00/13? The wheels still had the (original?) 900 x 13 sand tires on them.

David,

The rim marking is correct for that tyre. It is the width of the rim, where as the tyre is measure on max. with and not at its beads.

Richard

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
In the tire tug of war picture,,,, behind the beer guzzling soldier... that cab 11/12 truck seem to have a extra long fuel tank.... am I mistaken?? did some trucks have extra large fuel tanks ...maybe for North Africa???

Just curious??.....looks like a C or F 60........

Bob C.

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Didn't the Ford Factory archive pics that Clive recently had on his website show a modified vehicle for India that had four fuel tanks? That pic was taken in Libya in 1941, so it is possible it's an Indian Army vehicle.

This pic is the bare bones of an 11/12 Cab Ford 134"wb F60S.

[Keith Webb]

This is on a cab 12:



Link

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Tony

Imagine some one finding a whole stock of NOS fuel tanks like that....... I might even consider giving up beer for............
....... a day!!!!

Bob C.