Looking for Canadian M151A2 Pictures....

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Colin, thanks for the compliment, and for you help. When I initially published that web page some 6 years ago -with help from the very same people contributing here - very little seemed to be known about the "74 pattern jeep" in Canadian service (at least to me!). I'm glad this and other forums have yielded more information and photos.



You are aware that years before the Bantam/Willys quarter ton truck was named jeep, or let alone Willys trademarking "Jeep", this nickname was applied to utility vehicles being able to do things deemed impossible. Therefore I chose to use the use the nickname jeep, just like many soldiers have and will do, when referring to a small 4WD vehicle. This has nothing to do with the use of the "Jeep" trademark - I´m sure you´ll agree today´s Jeep is much further away from the WW2 jeep than the M151-series. . . .

Best regards,
Hanno

It was more than just soldiers who referred to any small utility vehicle as a Jeep. The Iltis was constantly referred to as "Iltis Jeep" in official documents from the Life Cycle managers in Ottawa. I never minded that the M151s were referred to as Jeep, but the Iltis thing kind of irked me. They certainly did not have my favorite characteristic of the Jeep: simplicity.

[Scott Bentley]

Wow....

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

The collection of pictures is a massive help. From what I have seen so far in a couple of dozen photos, is that almost no two are exactly the same when it comes to paint, markings etc. I'd imagine at the Unit level there was some standard, but outside of that, its a mixed bag.

With regards to Mikes A2, the source for my resto, i'm going to go ahead with my plan for 22 Fd Sqn marking. If I can find anything under the paint relating to CFE, I may go that route. At the end of the Day, a Sapper is going drive a Sappers Vehicle i'm sure the retired CF members around here can understand that.

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Rob, much appreciated the info on paint. Wasn't sure about the CARC, I started in the early 90s, so I wasn't entirely sure when it came into existence. Your right about the issues with handling it, no change there even today. When I first joined we wondered what it meant and why it was stenciled on everything.

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

My goal is to ensure that everything that goes back into this unit originally came throught the CF supply system where at all possible. So if your sitting on A2 parts, I may be dropping you a line

Whats the best route for getting this back to bare metal? Would it be too risky to sandblast it?

Thanks again

Scotty B

[rob love]

Sandblasting has it's advantages and disadvantages. It will certainly find the weaknesses in the body: ie rust. Thats a good thing. Once sandblasted, the metal is ready to patch. But don't leave the metal bare for more than a day or two or it will start to rust.

The biggest problem with sandblasting it that you will strip bare areas where you can't get the paint back into. Underneath the vehicle, you will also remove what little Zeibart remains.

Regarding the "unit level" standards, the standards were actually dictated both in the FMC standing orders, and later in the Brigade standing orders. Units were supposed to follow these guidlelines, but of course, with the long chains of commands, they could get distorted on the way down.

I know in the last unit I was in, I ordered a few hundred of the red Canada Flags to install on our vehicles as per the Brigade orders. The installation was nixed by slightly higher up (MWO) who felt the red was not a desirable colour on the cammed vehicles.

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Thank you for all of the replies. The response is nothing short of incredible. After a 15 year hiatus from MV's, its nice to come back and see so many people supporting it.

Where I do I submit a donation to keep the server from going offline

See Support Maple Leaf Up!, that is, if you weren´t joking

Hanno, I may approach you for assistance on getting the CFR once I have more info.

Sure, but I don't think I can add anymore than noted on my web page. Most if not all info on CFR's was provided by Rob Love.

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sure, but I don't think I can add anymore than noted on my web page. Most if not all info on CFR's was provided by Rob Love.

Re the CFRs, there is no correlation between CFRs and serial numbers on the M151A2s. I have a list of the 30 serial numbers of the ones I bought along with their CFRs. While Canada bought only 935 Mutts, the serial numbers range over several thousand just in the small sampling that I have. The CFRs all should be in the 74-09XXX range. The M38A1Cdn3 crossed into the 09XXX numbers, but just barely.

As can be seen by some of the numbers I gave Hanno to use on his site, while the CFRs are sequential (09151, 09152, 09153) their serial numbers (43882, 43728, 43839) are nowhere near sequential.

[Scott Bentley]

I know where your coming from regarding the paint. I just find it interesting though, how few actually got painted correctly. Its not surprising considering we used to make our own Tac Sign and C/S Stencils right in our lines. It was often done as part of "Extra Duties"

I'm still exploring the options for stripping the body. I have battled rust on every Jeep i've ever owned. I really want to make sure that there is no trace left on the Tub prior to paint, and also identify any "hidden" repairs that may need to be done to the skin. Aside from Sandblasting, I can't think of any other economic way. I used Wire Wheels with a 5" Grinder on my last project, and it was extremely time consuming and dirty. The thought of dropping it off to a pro who is setup for it, is kind of appealing. I'm trying to find a local shop who does the odd classic car and understands the end state for the Body. I will try and expose some markings in the key areas, prior to blasting it mind you.

Any of the cold working Dolly and Hammer repairs I can do to the body would be prior to Sandblasting eg, pounding out small dents and minor straightening. Anything requiring heat, cutting and welding would be done at the shop right after Sandblasting. That would be followed by Red Oxide Priming and an OD Base Coat.

Whats the opinion on Crown Spraying? That was my plan for protecting it in the hard to reach areas after the Ziebart is blown away.

As for a CFR, hopefully I can find something somewhere on either of the 2, and i'll go from there. I don't want to end up duplicating someone thats all.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

See Support Maple Leaf Up!, that is, if you weren´t joking

Done... I don't mind shelling out a bit for decent Tech Support

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Mike and I discussed at length the number of these that were painted in the 2 Color, Black and Green Cam Pattern. My goal is to project this little rig in the most likely state it would have been in, so this may be the route i'll go.

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):



As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Regards,
Hanno

Originally Posted by rob love

I would strongly recommend using the cam pattern as shown and attempting to get the 3 colours as close as possible. Any "2 colour" cam jobs were simply a failure in the chain at either getting the proper information or paint to the users level. I have also seen a few pieces in museums where the restorer's just painted away, without researching the proper paint schemes. It does the history of the vehicles a dis-service IMHO.

[Scott Bentley]

I know in my case paint is probably a long time off yet as I don't have the facilities here to start this, but as they say, "The Devil is in the details", which is why i'm trying to hoard info and research now so everything goes fairly smooth later on.

When it comes to the paint scheme its tricky. I understand where Rob is coming from with what is correct, but from everything i've seen so far, more often than not, they were not correct. My goal is to produce a "While in Service" rather than an "As Issued" resto, so its a tough call for me.

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

At the end of the day, I don't want someone who spent a significant part of their career in one of these coming up to me asking why its painted the way it is. My decision is no where close to being final.

Scotty,

And at the end of the day, it´s your truck, so you can paint and mark it up in the way you feel is most appropriate. Judging by what you have written here alone, no-one can claim you did not do you homework and slapped on the first tin of army green paint you came across.

H.

[Ed Storey]

Last time I checked I was!

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Last time I checked I was!

I thought it might be the case. I've had a few quick chats with Mr Storey over the years. Hes' been very active with the Regt over the years. Sort of a Regt Grand Dad

[maple_leaf_eh]

My Militia unit (Sherbrooke Hussars) was issued two M151 Jeeps. We called from "Seventy-Four Pattern Jeeps", to differentiate from the "Sixty-Seven Pattern Jeeps" we had in abundance. Where the name Mutt came from is beyond me. Probably some ad copy writer's nickname that appeared on a pamphlet another writer kept and repeated. So in your case, you don't have an M151A2 or a Mutt. Your Jeep is a 74-Pattern.

Your CFR may be repeated with decals under the paint on the dash.

The 74-Pattern was a soft ride compared to the 67-Pattern and easier to get up on two wheels. We never rolled any of our while I was in, but there were more accidents with the 67-Patterns. We all thought the big roll cage was an abomination when we saw it for the first time. The front seat is adjustable which is a good thing. The hood flat for sitting a two-burner stove on or sleeping or giving orders, but not for copying map traces. Too many ridges in the sheet metal. The four-wheel independant suspension meant they were easier to bottom out cross country. The glove box and tool kit weren't very handy as I remember. There isn't a lip around the rear cargo area, so stuff could slide out more easily. Having the tarp and side curtains on was good thing to not lose stuff.

Thanks Rob for posting the cam' painting diagram and paint codes. They will come in handy for my 67-Pattern.

[rob love]

There were 3 names kicking around for the M151A2s out in this neck of the woods. 74 pattern jeep was one of them. The other two were "disposable jeep" (since many guys thought that the Americans just threw them away when they broke them) and also rollover jeep, for obvious reasons.

The term mutt was a US acronym for Military Truck, Utility Tactical.

My old alma matta (the FGH) had 3 of the M151A2s for the officers in HQ, and the fighting troops all used the M38A1 cdn2 and 3. While the M151s were better suited for highway use, the did not have great gearing for cross country work. The sheet metal on them was also not heavy enough to support the GPMG swing arm mount, although I did see one of these mounts on a M151 when I did a short stint in Gagetown back in 80.

The M38A1s and the M151s both were subject to rollover when put into a full turn at speeds of around 25 or 30 mph. The difference was that on a M38A1 it took almost 3 turns of the steering wheel to get there, while an M151 could do it in 1-1/2 turns. Also, the suspension of the M151 did not give the driver the feel of just how fast he was turning.

I have owned a number of M38A1s over the years, and also had an uncut M151A2 for about 10 years. Quite frankly, the M151A2 sucked when trying to climb a sand dune. On the other hand, the engine was far superior to the Willys F head. I did not like the transmission on the M151s (weak) nor the 12 universal joints on the prop and axle shafts.

[Ed Storey]

The official nomenclature for the Canadian used (excluding the US supplied UN and ICCS vehicles) post-Second War 'Jeeps' was

M38CDN

M38A1CDN1
M38A1CDN2
M38A1CDN3

M151A2

Iltis

The MUTT portion of the US M151A2 MUTT designation means Military Utility Tactical Truck.

Here are a couple of scans of original Canadian manuals that show the official designation. I have yet to find any primary source documentation that refers to the Canadian Jeeps by 'Pattern' although if there is something out there I would like to see it. The CFR number does start with a two-digit year prefix which does indicate the year the vehicle was taken into service, but is not a 'pattern' indicator.

[cmp truck]

Hello,
I have some photos of the M15 in Moose Jaw sitting in front of the armoury.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by cmp truck

I have some photos of the M15 in Moose Jaw sitting in front of the armoury.

I assembled that Jeep. The body tub was one that was written off in Winnipeg, and cut into 4 sections if I remember correctly. I welded it back together and installed various components off some of the 30 M151A2s I bought out of Shilo back in the 80s. That jeep is reasonably complete, although most of the brakelines were cut from back when I was removing the suspensions. I used to strip a MUTT bare in 4 hours. On a good day, I would get 3 and a half of them done.

I would love to see photos of that one. I never did get a photo of any of my work from that collection. Several of the pieces there were from my collection, and many others in that display were my work.

[greg anderson (RIP)]

Hi- having restored 3or 4 ex army vehicles in my time in my opinion it is not necessary to sandblast -I would prefer a good wire brushing -what is left will probably be as good as anything you will put over it -also these were not Cadillacs so a prefect finish is probably out of place -I would suggest you use a two part primer and put the finish coat on within a couple of days or you should sand the primer - for the floor inside I used the truck box liner stuff with the paint so it is not noticeable but it stands up -I made a rotissery for my mutt which hooks to my hoist so I was able to roll it anound by myself -saved a lot of trouble -for a finish underneath I used Can Tire black tarry spray cans -I store the mutt in a shed so I hope it will tast forever-we are blessed here with back roads to drive these things -a necessity for full enjoyment - Greg

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by greg anderson

Hi- having restored 3or 4 ex army vehicles in my time in my opinion it is not necessary to sandblast -I would prefer a good wire brushing -what is left will probably be as good as anything you will put over it -also these were not Cadillacs so a prefect finish is probably out of place -I would suggest you use a two part primer and put the finish coat on within a couple of days or you should sand the primer - for the floor inside I used the truck box liner stuff with the paint so it is not noticeable but it stands up -I made a rotissery for my mutt which hooks to my hoist so I was able to roll it anound by myself -saved a lot of trouble -for a finish underneath I used Can Tire black tarry spray cans -I store the mutt in a shed so I hope it will tast forever-we are blessed here with back roads to drive these things -a necessity for full enjoyment - Greg

Hi Greg,

I have to agree, after a long thought about it, i've decieded against Sand Blasting this thing, and rather just lightly rough it up and paint it again. The only rust issues are easy to fix, and won't require drastic measures. Its never going to be a show winner resto, so taking it down to the bare metal would just accentuate its battle scars even more.

I managed to get mine up on 4 x 10 Ton Jack Stands so I can almost crouch under it now. Not too bad for working on it underneath, but still not as good as the old MUTT Kabob.

For the Tub Floors i'm thinking about brushing them down and doing the whole POR-15 process on it. I've seen others that have done it in the past on Jeep Frames etc, and it seems pretty sturdy and long lasting. Not sure about the underside yet. It still has most of the Ziebart Coating left on it, and although its protected it well, it looks like complete crap. Alot of dirt and grime is stuck to it. I'm going to try and at least get it cleaned up and degreased as best I can and re-assess.

What are the opinions on using JB Weld for very minor cosmetic touch ups? The sides where the Demil has been repaired might need a little bit of finessing and i'm not a fan a fan of Bondo.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's an example (click on the picture for a large size image):



As Rob pointed out, this must be an example of the 3-colour camouflage pattern being distorted in the chain of command to a 2-colour cam job. Anyway, it gives you a good idea of the M151A2 in Canadian service and is copied here form Verlinden's book as a soure of inspiration. I have looked high and low, but I could not find other pics of M151A2's in Canadian service than those shown here (or in the links).

Hanno
I see three colors in the cam job shown in your illustration. The olive drab is on the front cowl as it should be, and the forest green is at the rear half of the driver's opening. Text book cam job (on the side anyway).

[Ed Storey]

Here is an image of an M151A2 leading the division roll-past during Exercise RV81.

[Scott Bentley]

Thanks again Ed.. Much appreciated. Any relation to Ralph?

Rob, I was reading some of your older posts about the paint colors. Were you able to find a source in Canada at a reasonable price? I see Willys Acres sells paint, and is willing to bring in other codes other than the WWII stuff. Anyone ever bought those paint codes from him?

[rob love]

Scotty
For the black I spray on tremclad flat back reduced with paint thinner. For the olive drab I have been using one of the shades from Rapco, which sells the Gillespie brand of paint. I think it was 33070 I was using, but I would have to confirm this. The paint chart on this site: http://hedgehoghollow.com/buzz/Colou.../army_clr.html gives 34082 as the closest but poor match. I think the 34052 would come close to a substitute for the flat green colour, although the cross ref chart gives 34079 as a direct replacement.
I order my paint from RAPCO (4 gallons at a time) and have it delivered to a border shipping service. It is about an hours drive to go pick it up, but when you consider that by the time I get the paint home I only have about $45 into each gallon, the extra time is worth it. Rapco's paint is also fresh. I bought some paint from a source in Winnipeg only to find that it was about 5 years old and had possibly been frozen.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

I see three colors in the cam job shown in your illustration. The olive drab is on the front cowl as it should be, and the forest green is at the rear half of the driver's opening. Text book cam job (on the side anyway).

Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

Left and right were indeed mirror images of each other.

[mike mckinley]

here are a few pics of an ex cdn a2 that was on ebay a few years ago. the one with the trailer attached was for sale locally for way too much quid. it was fairly rust free and sported the paint job it left gagetown with.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

I will admit, after alot of weathering the two Greens do seem to fade to the point where it is hard to distinguish the two.

Any input on the Crown Spray? I suppose I could have Ziebart Re-applied after the resto.

[rob love]

They started to do the Crown Spray on the military trucks just before I got out of the military. It did not seem to me to be much different than the spraying of used motor oil in Ontario decades back.

You can buy a oil spray gun from princess auto for around $20. Spray the under chassis of the mutt with 30 weight and you should be good. You can even pull some of those ziebart plugs in the frame channels and spray oil into there.

There was a patch of rust on my current M38A1 at the front right pillar and at the bottom edge of the right side from water in the tool box. I sprayed both these areas with motor oil and it stopped any further deterioration dead. I am just finishing up the restoration of an old 5/4 ton, and plan on spraying the underneath of the cargo box with 30 weight as well. I don't really have to do under the cab so much....being a chevy it has the auto oiler (350 V8 and the turbo 350 tranny) looking after that floor.


A wise body man once told me that anytime you go into a door to work on things like door handles or window mechanisms, you throw an oil soaked rag into the bottom of the door. Anytime you are back in their, you re-soak it. A little oil goes a long way, and is relatively cheap.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Rob,

Thanks for pointing this out! Shows how easy it is to mistake a 3-colour for a 2-colour camouflage job.

Had a close look at the cam pattern for the Cdn 1/4 ton vehicles. From this I deduct left and right sides were supposed to have the same pattern, right?

Thanks,
Hanno

Here are a couple snaps of my Cdn3 I took today. This is my daily driver for when I go to get the mail, and often, if I am bored, it will take a ride through the local forest. As such, the body is not pristine. I also dropped a tree across the hood last year while cutting firewood, and I have not got around to sandblasting and painting the replacement hood yet.

This Jeep has had the typical light armoured recce modifications to it. These include the wire cutter bar on the front bumper, and the GPMG mount on the right side. It also has the IKEE (Installation kit, electrical equipment) for the 524 set). The "support our troops cadpat magnet on the left corner is not an official marking. The bent fenders, while not an official light recce modification, were pretty much standard on all the recce jeeps after 15 years of hard service.

Anyway, this is the textbook 3 colour "by the book" Cdn cam job.

[Scott Bentley]

Thanks for the snaps Rob,

Although its an M38A1, like you said before, its still the correct 1/4 Ton cam pattern.

I've decieded that pattern will be my end state in paint.

Well, I finally got a hold on the Red Deer A2. After flushing the fuel system and doing a few checks we got it fired up. It runs quite well right off the bat, but it looks like i'm going to need to buy a Timing Light/Tech Dwell Meter as both the Carb and Distributer are recent NOS installs and havn't had any fine adjustments done yet.

Rob, you wouldn't happen to have a line on another AMU Mounting Bracket like you have on the rear left corner of your M38A1? This 74 has all of the holes and wear marks from one that was removed when it was demiliterized, and i'd love to get another one.

Actually, while i'm at it, if anyone has any lines on an RT524 with Tray, or a PRC77 Set and a 2060 Tray, i'd be very interest in them. I'd like to try and get a Radio installed with the Restoration.

Scotty B