LPG fuel around the world...

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think the Canadian experiments look a bit like a dog and pony show operation testing an interesting concept in the early days of development.

Things have become much more scientific and everything is now built on well founded engineering experiments and millions of hours of successful real-life operation. I think if the Canadian experiments were repeated now just using off the shelf equipment that has been developed they would have very different results.

There is no problem using gas on modern cars because they have all the hardened valve components to cater for modern lead-free petrol and can handle gas OK. If you are worried there are plenty of lead replacement additives which can be used in the oil or in the occasional tank of petrol if you have dual fuel. The metering bottles from Moreys and others direct into the intake are supposed to be excellent.

In older engines gas will give you the the same problems as lead free petrol so the remedies are the same(hardened valve seats or lead replacement additives)

There may well be many new developements that make propane more viable. Are the new systems in union with the emmisions control systems? Does the Oxygen sensor (and the host of others in the emmision system) control the fuel's injection system? Back in the day, the propane system merely replaced a carburetor, and was not tied in to the engines' computer.

One thing that has not changed in Canada though is the extreme temps we get here on the prairies. Minus 35C is -35C, and the propane will not evaporate readily at that temp, making cold starts extremely difficult. Add to that we do not have a fuel shortage in Canada, and the propane does not look so attractive.

[Lang]

Rob,

The gas systems fitted to cars definitely produce less greenhouse gas than petrol or diesel. That goes for specific built engines such as the Ford Taxis here in Australia and after market add-on kits.

The add-ons can be attached to carburettor vehicles using straight gas or dual fuel and injected vehicles using both with the same results. The mixture sensing units are very sophisticated.

I think that dual fuel systems would be the go in Canada with either manual or automatic changeover to gas during the cruise period - maybe a heater system for the gas is called for but it would probably be pretty simple to devise.

I am interested in your comments that there is no shortage of fuel in Canada. If we continue to use petrol without milking everything out of it eg LPG we are just going faster down the international slippery slope - Canada is not an island. Your comments about emissions show you care about this aspect like most of us - gas is a way to reduce them. With your pioneering experience with gas you should be a salesman for it !???

Lang

[Jon Skagfeld]

Rob, Lang et al. In 1981 I bought a brand new Chev Caprice Classic. I had installed a 77 liter propane tank in the large trunk. A brushed aluminum lockable access door for filling, and appropriate dash switches completed the ensemble.

At the time, and also during the same time to which Rob refers, efforts were made to encourage such dual conversions. Heavy subsidies for LPG meant a 0.13 per liter cost.

Yes, performance was down about 10-15%.

Yes, filling stations were far and few between.

Yes, cold weather starts were a bitch.

But if one had dual fuel, no sweat. Start on regular in the AM, run on LPG during the day, shut down on regular.

The military, bless their hearts, went total LPG for, primarily the usual inter base pedal runs and staff car routes which, through experience, had authorized regular gas refill stations located en-route.

With a lower performance profile, recovery calls started coming in because vehicles were stranded with out-of-fuel conditions. Quel surprise!

An expensive exercise indeed.

Any lessons learned, I wonder?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think that dual fuel systems would be the go in Canada with either manual or automatic changeover to gas during the cruise period - maybe a heater system for the gas is called for but it would probably be pretty simple to devise.

In Holland (and most of Western Europe) mostly dual fuel systems are used. Even today´s modern systems start the engine on petrol, and switch over to LPG unnoticably once the vaporiser has warmed up. The vaporiser is plumbed in with the car´s cooling system. This works in cold climates too, although it might take running a few kilometers instead of a few hundred meters (like here) to heat up.

The latest technology is LPG liquid injection. Instead of vaporising the LPG, it is injected in the inlet manifold in liquefied form. This allows improved control of the fuel injection, which results in improved performance and optimum combustion. Because a liquefied petroleum gas system employs the original petrol engine’s computer, all the original characteristics are retained and the emissions are less harmful to the environment.

Holland and Italy are the home to the world´s leading LPG systems manufacturers, succesfully exporting their products across the globe.

H.

[Howard]

Originally Posted by rob love

There may well be many new developements that make propane more viable. Are the new systems in union with the emmisions control systems? Does the Oxygen sensor (and the host of others in the emmision system) control the fuel's injection system? Back in the day, the propane system merely replaced a carburetor, and was not tied in to the engines' computer...

We fit two kinds of LPG system to vehicles: a)mixer, b)VSI
a) Mixer systems we simply install a mixer ring somewhere in the air intake system. It works like a carbie in that it creates a venturi and draws LPG vapor with the air on the way through. If the vehicle that this system is fitted to has an o2 sensor, we also fit a 'stepper motor' device that uses the data from the o2 sensor to vary the amount of LPG vapor delivered.
Non o2 mixer systems use about 20-25% more gas than petrol. Mixer systems with an o2 sensor are more efficient and you can expect to use 10-15% more gas than petrol.
b) VSI (Vapor Sequential Injection) systems are something else. With this system, we fit a gas injector into the inlet manifold right next to the petrol injector. This system is superior because it uses ALL of the engine management system data that the petrol system uses, eg, MAF, MAP, o2, knock, air temp, coolant temp, etc etc. Having all of this data allows the LPG ECU to trim fuel & ignition strategies to the point where power & consumption figures on LPG mirrored petrol's performance, to within 2 or 3%.
I should note that some vehicles return better figures than others, having said that I have a customer with a 1 year old Falcon XR6 (190kw?) who gets significantly BETTER economy from LPG than petrol.
Naturally, the more efficient an engine is at the start, the more efficient it will be on LPG.

[Howard]

As for head gear damage, it is a real problem. However, it is one that is not to hard to overcome. Most Aussies I'm sure will be familiar with 'Flashlube' which is an upper cylinder lubricant added to the petrol tank of pre-unleaded vehicles. Flashlube make a dispenser kit that will add around 500ml per 5000km into the intake system & help protect the headgear. We fit this on every vehicle except Falcons. I am sure there would be something equivalent available elsewhere in the world...
Some vehicles (eg Toyota Workmate Hilux 2wd, or the new Holden Rodeo) will always destroy their headgear, due to very soft metal headgear.

[Bob McNeill]

Regarding the situation in NSW and Historic rego, the RTA our govening state body says " the vehicle is to be as close to ORIGINAL as possible except for safety issues " since lpg requires an engineers ticket the vehicle has been MODIFIED so it is not eligable for Historic or Concessional rego.

[rob love]

This thread has had some very interesting information and anecdotes. Very informative to see the directions that LPG has gone, and the reliability achieved in the warmer climates.

One of the problems we had back in the day with the dual fuel system was that you either tuned up the vehicle for gas, or for propane. Or more often, you kind of struck a balance so that neither system was operating at it's peak efficiency. With todays computer systems I guess the end results could be much more favorable.

My guess was that we had seen the last of the propane vehicles in this part of the world, but I suppose we can never say never.

[cletrac (RIP)]

The big problem for these conversions is compression ratio. Propane needs a lot higher ratio to work properly. If you installed pistons that gave about 11 to 1 ratio that would solve some of it but there'd be no going back to gasoline. You'd still have the spare fuel portability issue and the cold weather thing. Rob mentioned minus 35 temps causing problems but at minus 40 propane simply won't vaporize. I worked on a seismograph crew in Alberta in the early 1970s and when it got lower than about 20 below F we'd light the tiger torch and direct the flickering flame at the 100 pound bottle for 15 or 20 minutes before the liquid would vaporize enough to make the torch burn properly. That made some of the crew get a little nervous but "ya gotta do what ya gotta do!" I remember filling those bottles for $3 but then crude oil was $1.86 a barrel too. Talk about the good old days!

[Lang]

You seem to have a serious problem in sub-zero temperatures and maybe Canadian gas use will require further development with heating units etc before it is universally acceptable. Of course in those temperatures EVERY engine has its problems - you don't see engine warmers on cars or aircraft in Australia.

Gas does not need higher compressions to work as well as petrol. If you read the above thread you will see that compression is not mentioned in the various problems discussed. There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of vehicles in Australia alone running on gas conversions switching from petrol to gas as they drive along with no discernable change in performance or reliability.

I have probably 250,000km in dual fuel gas/petrol converted cars ranging from Ford V8's to Toyota and Nissan straight 6's to GM V6's. Apart from saving tens of thousands of dollars they all performed with reliability and performance equal to or better than their original petrol only brothers.

Don't give up Canada, I am sure there is a way to use LPG in a cold climate with a bit of inventive experimentation.

[Lang]

Originally Posted by Bob McNeill

Regarding the situation in NSW and Historic rego, the RTA our govening state body says " the vehicle is to be as close to ORIGINAL as possible except for safety issues " since lpg requires an engineers ticket the vehicle has been MODIFIED so it is not eligable for Historic or Concessional rego.

Bob,

I don't think that is an insurmountable obstacle.

What about all the hotrods and left to right hand drive conversions on concession rego. Describe your Blitz as a hotrod if you have to, you will still get concessional rego.

I think that a simple "There is no longer any leaded petrol so the vehicle has been forced to use a fuel which will now damage the engine. I am faced with a choice of making internal modifications to enable the vehicle to be safely used. I have a choice of rebuilding the whole engine and modifying valves etc or fitting the much more ecologically sound gas conversion."

There are lots of other ways to get a plate on a vintage gas powered car as well.

I am a great believer in just doing it - let them discover a regulatory problem with absolutely no extra information from you. If you volunteer to test the gallows trap door or if you blindly follow all the rules you are only encouraging the bastards!

Lang

[Andrew Morrison]

I run a car here in the UK which is on LPG gas.

The cost savings were what attracted me to this plus prior experience of it in Australia where as other have said it is a well established alternative fuel for vehicles.

Initially looked at doing the home brew bio diesel however when you did the sums it was too expensive compared with LPG. Even with the current waiving of fuel duty on home production / own use bio diesel.

Home brew bio diesel might have been OK before too many people started chasing the used chip oil. Once everyone wants something it is no longer a waste product you can just take away. It has now become a product to be sold to the highest bidder. Also with bio diesel you only have access to it at home. Once away from there you are back to petrol station prices.

I do about 250 miles a week and previously did this in an Mercedes A class manual 1.6 litre 4 cylinder petrol. Have swapped it for an automatic 4.6 litre v8 Range Rover on LPG. Fuel cost in real life driving over the same journey is about the same. Have driven on LPG then petrol however cannot tell the difference.

LPG tank replaced spare tyre so keep dual fuel capability if needed and no loss of interior carrying space.

Was concerned as most seem to be about my ability to locate a LPG filling station when away from home. Filling stations are not as common here as in Australia. Problem has been solved though as a list of all UK mainland filling stations can now be down loaded from the internet and put into your sat nav (Check before purchasing sat nav as not all brands are supported). This listing even includes price and opening times and is updated about every 2 weeks. Drove to the highlands of Scotland for a weeks holiday and even up there gas was viable as it was available in even the smallest village.

Downside is that there is no standard filling connection in Europe. Go to Southern Ireland and the connector is different. Believe there are 3 types in Europe just depends on the country you are in.