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#1
05-10-08, 06:32
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We had a 1988 Dodge V8 pickup that ran on propane and it got 20% less mileage than on gas. You couldn't always count on being able to buy propane when you needed it and if you ran out you couldn't get a can and dump it in the tank. We tried the BBQ bottle but couldn't get the liquid to flow into the tank. I hooked a tiger torch onto the bottle then removed the torch from the hose and poked the hose into the aircleaner. I regulated the gas flow with the bottle tap and we made it to town for more. All in all it was more of a pain in the ass than it was worth so we threw it in the junk and went back to gasoline.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 
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#2
05-10-08, 10:00
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Looks like we have gas conversions sorted out in Australia better than most places. The majority of service stations have gas.
Gas does NOT need petrol or anything else to make it start. A proper conversion will provide a vehicle that starts exactly the same on straight gas as it does on petrol. The engine conversion only takes a couple of hours but it usually takes a bit of time to fit tanks and plumb in the lines and filler connection. Conversions in cars often go straight to pure gas operation. Because there is no room to leave the petrol tank in with the gas tank. Most conversions on 4WD leave a petrol tank in as well (dual fuel systems) and you can just switch from one to the other. The main reason for this is for country area use where gas equipped service stations are not available or you want to fill out of cans etc. Having owned an F150 with a 351 V8, 6 cylinder Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols and my wife having a 6 cylinder Holden Commodore all on dual fuel I can say gas is a perfectly acceptable fuel. There is absolutely no discernable difference in engine performance and the 10-15% reduction in mileage is more than offset by the 50% reduction in cost. You can just flick the switch from gas to petrol while driving along and normally won't even get a small cough. Ford and GM have been building taxis for many years as gas runners from the factory. 99% of Australian taxis run on gas. Mike mentions the smell - if you can smell your own car there is something wrong and if you are not used to it by now after sitting in traffic surrounded by gas burning taxis for the last 15 years you probably never will be. It is probably more pleasant than sitting beside a diesel bus in traffic. All the above problems in Europe and Canada were experienced in Australia 10-15 years ago but technology and knowledge have left all those problems in the distant past. The Australian Federal Government will give you a straight grant to convert to gas. Some fitters do it for free with cars (and just collect the $2,000 from the government) while something like a Landcruiser will cost the owner an extra $1,000/$1,500 which he will pay off in 6 months with fuel cost savings. There is some confusion between LPG and LNG/CNG (liquid Natural Gas/Compressed Natural Gas). LPG is what is used in cars and is a byproduct of petrol production - or if huge quantities are needed actually consumes oil to produce. Apart from some reduced greenhouse emissions it is not a particularly ecologically wonderful product. It liquifies at low pressure and authorities are happy for the public to be handling it to fire their cars or barbecues. LNG, on the other hand, is found in gas form under the ground and many people believe the vast resources present in many countries (including Australia) are being "hidden" or sold cheaply to local or Japanese factories while we continue to pay the oil companies for LPG. They are NOT interchangeable. LNG turns to liquid at MUCH higher pressures than LPG. LNG requires high pressure tanks. The thinwalled, light tanks in cars holding LPG would have to be replaced with massive oxy/acetyline type bottles. Can you imagine the government allowing people to drive up and wave around hoses transmitting an extremely highly compressed explosive gas? 30psi is one thing, hundreds of PSI is another. A number of Australian public transport operators are experimenting with LNG but this is at proper bus refuelling stations with expensive storage and dispensing equipment and trained operators. Even so, a couple of months ago, the entire back was blown off a bus during refueling at Brisbane City bus workshops. A number of people have converted their military vehicles to LPG and I think it is a good idea if you are doing a lot of miles. A further historical element is town gas or coal gas which was used during WW2 on vehicles (I think there is a thread on gas producers). This is hopelessly inefficient and not suitable for use in car engines except in desperate wartime situatons. I am afraid we can't run a hose from our kitchen oven into our car tank. Lang Last edited by Lang; 05-10-08 at 10:26.
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#3
05-10-08, 10:45
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G'day All, I'm fairly certain that in NSW (OZ) you cannot have a vehicle on historic registration (club rego) that runs on LPG, maybe it should be considered by the relevant body but don't hold your breath cheers Dennis
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#4
05-10-08, 12:29
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Ford's E-Gas engines
I can tell you Ford Australia's LPG straight six isn't a conversion of a petrol engine but a dedicated six cylinder with unique conrods, head, manifold and the list goes on. We've been building them since the AU Falcon and at peak demand were building over 120 ( mixed in with our standard and turbo ) out of 450 engines a day.
A couple of years back we were just a weekend away from putting the gas engine into our Territory SUV but the idea was canned from higher up. It's just a pity that the "Gurus" in Marketing don't promote it well enough so that the wider public see the benefits. Most people are not aware we even make it. We don't all need the be running to 4 cylinder cars. Oh well, we are still making them daily and they still make up a great deal of our production. Unfortunately our production will fall soon to just 255 engines a day as the public move away from "scary" large sixes. On a side note I just got a gas conversion done just last week. After the government rebate I'll only be out of pocket $800. Which will be made back soon enough through the cheaper price of LPG at the pump.
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Blitz books.
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#5
05-10-08, 12:47
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Howard,
Thanks for bringing this up. I love LPG and have had a few cars running on LPG, see some of my (dated) notes of running a VW Beetle on LPG. More later. H.
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Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#6
05-10-08, 12:55
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I think the Canadian experiments look a bit like a dog and pony show operation testing an interesting concept in the early days of development.
Things have become much more scientific and everything is now built on well founded engineering experiments and millions of hours of successful real-life operation. I think if the Canadian experiments were repeated now just using off the shelf equipment that has been developed they would have very different results. There is no problem using gas on modern cars because they have all the hardened valve components to cater for modern lead-free petrol and can handle gas OK. If you are worried there are plenty of lead replacement additives which can be used in the oil or in the occasional tank of petrol if you have dual fuel. The metering bottles from Moreys and others direct into the intake are supposed to be excellent. In older engines gas will give you the the same problems as lead free petrol so the remedies are the same(hardened valve seats or lead replacement additives)
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#7
05-10-08, 13:20
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Dennis,
There are no restrictions on club registration and LPG in QLD (I don't get the connection). I know one NSW owner on club plates and LPG. Could you check to see what the rules are - we don't want them coming across the border particularly if some public servant has a "well founded reason" for the restriction. We can then help you fight it. Lang
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#8
05-10-08, 13:22
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Quote:
H.
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Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#9
05-10-08, 13:40
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Quote:
This was also the conclusion when tests were done in the UK on the demise of leaded petrol and trials of lead replacement additives were conducted. I expected to be a slight rise in valve problems amongst customers vehicles, but nothing of significance has been noted over the years, and not everyone uses additives either. What should be noted, is that quite a number of wartime vehicles, both US and British, had hardened seats and specialist steels for exhaust valves, amongst them were Dodge (USA), Austin and Morris-Commercial (UK). Back to LPG, about 28 years ago, I hired a haulier to move a vehicle and he had a Bedford TK with the 300 petrol engine, running on a normal propane cylinder as used on forklift trucks.
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Richard 1943 Bedford QLD lorry - 1941 BSA WM20 m/cycle - 1943 Daimler Scout Car Mk2 Member of MVT, IMPS, MVG of NSW, KVE and AMVCS KVE President & KVE News Editor
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#10
05-10-08, 18:29
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Quote:
One thing that has not changed in Canada though is the extreme temps we get here on the prairies. Minus 35C is -35C, and the propane will not evaporate readily at that temp, making cold starts extremely difficult. Add to that we do not have a fuel shortage in Canada, and the propane does not look so attractive.
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#11
05-10-08, 22:40
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Rob,
The gas systems fitted to cars definitely produce less greenhouse gas than petrol or diesel. That goes for specific built engines such as the Ford Taxis here in Australia and after market add-on kits. The add-ons can be attached to carburettor vehicles using straight gas or dual fuel and injected vehicles using both with the same results. The mixture sensing units are very sophisticated. I think that dual fuel systems would be the go in Canada with either manual or automatic changeover to gas during the cruise period - maybe a heater system for the gas is called for but it would probably be pretty simple to devise. I am interested in your comments that there is no shortage of fuel in Canada. If we continue to use petrol without milking everything out of it eg LPG we are just going faster down the international slippery slope - Canada is not an island. Your comments about emissions show you care about this aspect like most of us - gas is a way to reduce them. With your pioneering experience with gas you should be a salesman for it !??? Lang
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#12
06-10-08, 03:09
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Quote:
a) Mixer systems we simply install a mixer ring somewhere in the air intake system. It works like a carbie in that it creates a venturi and draws LPG vapor with the air on the way through. If the vehicle that this system is fitted to has an o2 sensor, we also fit a 'stepper motor' device that uses the data from the o2 sensor to vary the amount of LPG vapor delivered. Non o2 mixer systems use about 20-25% more gas than petrol. Mixer systems with an o2 sensor are more efficient and you can expect to use 10-15% more gas than petrol. b) VSI (Vapor Sequential Injection) systems are something else. With this system, we fit a gas injector into the inlet manifold right next to the petrol injector. This system is superior because it uses ALL of the engine management system data that the petrol system uses, eg, MAF, MAP, o2, knock, air temp, coolant temp, etc etc. Having all of this data allows the LPG ECU to trim fuel & ignition strategies to the point where power & consumption figures on LPG mirrored petrol's performance, to within 2 or 3%. I should note that some vehicles return better figures than others, having said that I have a customer with a 1 year old Falcon XR6 (190kw?) who gets significantly BETTER economy from LPG than petrol. Naturally, the more efficient an engine is at the start, the more efficient it will be on LPG.
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Howard Holgate F15 #12 F15A #13 (stretched) F60S #13 C15A #13 Wireless (incomplete)
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#13
05-10-08, 12:17
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Quote:
Funny story: I had to use the bottle on a recovery of a staff car one evening, so the next day the Sgt told me to take the bottle to the civilian propane depot to get it refilled. We had the capability to fill vehicles in the DND, but not to refill BBQ tanks. Of course, the propane company that had won the contract to refill our bottles were on the furthest side of the city, so off I drove the 45 minutes to get there. Once there, they refilled the bottle but found it only needed a partial fill, so they only charged me for a "mini fill", which was $4 instead of $8. I then drove the 45 minutes back to the shop, and submitted the invoice. Next day the Sgt tells me that the supply guy was not happy about the mini fill since we were only tendered for full fill, so I had to drive all the way across town with the invoice, explain it to the company, and have them make out a new invoice for the full fill amount, which they gladly did. So in total, I ( a military mechanic) had to spend a total of 4 hours, and drive a car across the city twice, just so I could get half a bottle of propane at the full bottle price. These were the efficiencies of the DND at the time. One thing I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the need for hardened valves and seats when using LPG. We had new vehicles which would require completely new valve trains after only 6 months of service..
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