New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well I'm going to copy the Hammond Barn concept a little and start a new thread on HUP overhaul project. I say over haul not restoration because this HUP has been on the road since 1980 and is basically a sweet running truck. But after 30 years of use and enjoyment it has developed some problems which need a basic overhaul. The engine on this truck has never been apart.

The three photos below show the starting point (12/11/10) and progress (1/6/11). I expect to have the body off next week. My goal is to have the truck overhaul and painting completed by our Club's Summer Rally the end of July.

I've a time lapse camera clicking away and I be posting more pictures on my website in the near future.

So if you have any questions about details on a late 1945 ask them and I'll take extra picture.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Since you usually are the first to respond to the yearly Hammond Barn update, I thought it appropriate to respond in kind with your thread. I await further photos with eager anticipation.

[Bob Carriere]

....ain't the web a great tool for staying in touch...........

Bob
President
Local Hammond chapter
The Phil Waterman fan club....

[Nick Bullock]

Hi Phil

Happy memories, I am watching with great interest.

regards

Nick
Yorkshire

[RHClarke]

Phil,

Thanks for posting the gif and jpeg HUP images on your website (http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com). It truly is "the place to be" for HUP info.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well as of Friday the body is basically stripped. All the fuel system including tanks and lines has been removed. The body is all ready to be lifted off down the road at my friendly heavy truck shop. When I checked before Christmas he had no work at all and the shop was empty, then we got 18" of snow now he is backed up with broken plow equipment. First heavy snow of the year finds everything that people had planned to fix last summer and forgot. So now I'm waiting for him to get caught up.

I've posted a whole bunch of photos of the process on my web site page is not on the index yet but here is the direct link http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm it also includes a time lapse video of most of the work so far http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...d%20HQ%201.wmv

Cheers I'll post some photos directly to MLU have to downsizes them.

This week I start cleaning parts.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All ...The body is all ready to be lifted off down the road at my friendly heavy truck shop. Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, Just checking progress. Did you remove the floor plates in the cab and the rear fenders? I strongly recommend you do so to prevent damage. Also, did you find the two large bolts that hold the front of the cab frame to the truck frame? I found them the hard way...

Will you be supervising the lift? Some folk think army trucks are indestructable and treat them accordingly...At the barn we used chains and straps to lift the HUP body. The chains went under the body and thru the rear wheel wells and from the front cab frame to a central point above the main hatch. A strap held both chains together and then attached to Bob's bucket. It takes some time to find the right balance point, but it works.

Good luck with the lift!

[Bob Carriere]

....and a source of inspiration..... I was running out of breath watching you move around......

Remember is you need bits and pieces we are only as far as UPS....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Hi Phil, Just checking progress. Did you remove the floor plates in the cab and the rear fenders? I strongly recommend you do so to prevent damage. Also, did you find the two large bolts that hold the front of the cab frame to the truck frame? .....

Good luck with the lift!

Hi Rob

Your point about hidden bolts is well taken, one of the reasons I take so many pictures, is so by looking at them in order I can see what the order is for reassembling. Strange you should mention the front bolts that actually is one of the areas which prompted a down to the frame overhaul, a fatigue crack at the left front bolt location. The picture below will show the location of these unique to HUP body mounting bolts on the bigger CMP cab bolts are really obvious.

Too check for other hidden attachments I've lifted the body up a couple of inches with hydraulic jack think I got everything, now I've put two of the big eye bolt clamps back on for the trip to the garage. Your information on lifting the body are help full. But with the truck finger lift down the road it should be a snap to lift the body straight up then drive my C60L with the drop side cargo bend under with wooden blocks to keep from crushing or bending the chock block boxes at the rear or any of the other little projections. Then it's fold up the drop sides, strap the body down and drive home.

Suspect that the hardest part will be getting the HUP into and out of my own shop. Which is the reason for the pintle hook attachment on the front of my C60L.

The 2nd photo shows the issue I have with the crack to be repaired should be easy once the body is off the truck. Plan too cut the crack lines open and drill a hole just beyond the end of the long crack should then be able to weld the crack cuts tight.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

....and a source of inspiration..... I was running out of breath watching you move around......

Remember is you need bits and pieces we are only as far as UPS....

Bob

Hi Bob

Glad you enjoyed the comic relief of the time lapse photos, been having a bit of problem with the time lapse camera so I've missed a couple of days of dismantling. The pictures below will give you an indication of how far the body is stripped.

Friday afternoon ran into a small glitch, had just finished moving all the parts stripped off the HUP so far to the loft of the barn on the cargo elevator/adjustable height work bench. Got ready to send the last load up when the control switch burned out. Stupid little double throw double pole momentary switch has trapped all the parts up in the loft. I've got a new switch coming from California switch $4.30 shipping $ 7.00 so I figure I'll order a couple of spares.

Thanks for offer of help with parts much appreciated, actually I'm not expecting to need much in the way of CMP specific parts, most of what I know so far will be needed is lots of parts cleaner, paint, elbow grease, seals and gaskets.

As I said on the web site my target is to have the HUP reassembled and driving by its 66th buildday in June 66 years and going strong.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Rob...The 2nd photo shows the issue I have with the crack to be repaired should be easy once the body is off the truck. Plan too cut the crack lines open and drill a hole just beyond the end of the long crack should then be able to weld the crack cuts tight. Cheers Phil

Phil, My 45 had the same crack in the same location. I also found a number of cracks on the frame - see attached photo - that you may want to check out on your HUP. Keep in mind that my HUP was very much abused...

The white circle was to remind me of the cracked "sled" or runner on the pax side of the truck. The other points included the lower central windshield frame, the point where the upright post meets the wheel well and the door frame just above the guideway. My poor truck was wracked, bent, twisted, torqued and overstressed in so many areas. Thus, the cracks.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Thanks for pointing out other problem crack locations, I'll be sure to document all the problem areas I find.

My HUP had a strange crack in the middle of the roof in the forward area I think caused by the heavy forward hatch ring bouncing up and down.

The center post of the my windshield is bolted not welded. Had to replace the bolt at one point because it worked loose and then broke when I tried to tighten it.

Redoing some of my early body work may be difficult as I brazed several sheet metal cracks on the fenders back in the 80s. Now either have to cut cracks and brass out and then re-weld or get the equipment to braze again.

My HUP has had a hard life too, of lots of off road use, and I'm glad to say I had all the fun of driving it over all that rough terrain. Other than cross slope there are very few places a MB, M38, M151 can go that a HUP can not follow, Jeeps charge hills and bounce over obstacles HUPs just slow down and crawl over them.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

...The center post of the my windshield is bolted not welded. Had to replace the bolt at one point because it worked loose and then broke when I tried to tighten it...Cheers Phil

My vertical/center post is bolted as well. The horizontal bar beneath the center post was split from a frontal impact. I can only imagine it was quite a hit...

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Progress has not been as dramatic now that everything that can be unbolted from the body has been removed. The body is already to come off but a recent series of snow storms has prevented hauling the truck down to the local heavy truck shop to lift the body off. Big storms means that they they have been busy fixing big highway plows. Hopefully before the next big storm hits I'll get it in and lift the body off.

So in the interim I've been working on things like replacing the dozen caged nuts that have broken. I've added more pictures and expanded the time lapse videos http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

Seems every storm has split to either go North of Ottawa or South ..... then Cost gets it......

Send us a picture of your snow banks for ol' time sake..... we can't remember what they look like...... we barely have 12 inches on the ground.....

....but Winter is not over so will not make fun of you again this Winter.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Bob you asked about a picture of the snow banks around the house well the first pictures shows the town plow truck coming in to clean the dooryard. Yup we get one nutty benefit in our town the town plows driveways. (one of the last left in the state that does) Catch is they will not plow nearer than 4' of a building so you still need a plow to clean up after the snow slides off the roof in front of the garage.

Next two pictures show what happened yesterday when I move one of the trucks out for and hour to work on one of the cars, a quick covering of inch plus of snow.

In the last 48 hours we have gotten 18 inches of snow, on top of the 20+ already on the ground.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

You must still be getting the last dump.....

Just spent 2 hours with the snoblower...... some areas only had 3 to 4 inches some areas had 2 feet drifts...... luck is with us again..... most of the storm went South of Ottawa on its way to your place..... you may find some Canadian red maple leafs mixed with the snow.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Between snow storms I finally towed the HUP down to the heavy truck shop this morning. Had to be there at 8 AM as they proprietor had to go out with his back hoe and finish cleaning up the latest storm before the next storm tomorrow. Being a one man operation he wears several hats including doing a plow route for the town.

So it was a bit nippy heading out with the temperature down at -11 C but not a long trip about 3 miles. Whole trip in 4 wheel drive as the military tires on the nice smoothly plowed roads needed the extra traction. In all it actually took longer to pull the HUP out of my shop and get it back into my shop than the rest of the process. Hour and eleven minutes from the time I arrived at his shop till I was driving away with the body in the back of the C60L.

First step will be to remove the engine so I can put in on the engine test stand and do some run tests to figure out what work is needed (more on the test when I start on them) anyway I want to determine early on if it is going to need any major machine shop work as there generally is about a 2 week wait on that stuff.

Now I can really get started on the work and in particular where the paint is needed the chassis and the underside of the body

Here are some pictures of the fun.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

Must have been awful breezy driving at -11 in an open cab....Brrrrr.....
even if only for a few miles.

You must have some Canadian blood in you !!!!!

Are you going to unload the HUP body on a temporary wheeled frame ....?

I think you have more energy than the 3 of us in Hammond....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Yes it was a bit cold, but I had dressed in layers, looked a little like the Michilem Man. Maybe a bit of Canadian blood my mother came from a farm north of Saint Albans, Vt.

Haven't really decided how I'm going to work on the body yet. Considering a couple of options all depending on progress I make on the chassis, engine and the weather. If spring comes before the chassis is done I may take the body down to a local stone cutter/antique car restorer and have the body sand blasted.

I like this guy for this type of work as he has about 12 antique cars and knows how to clean paint off without damaging the metal. His primary business is as a monument engraver which is mostly done by sand blasting now.

What is kind of interesting about this guy is he learned his trade from his father who was a German stone mason, who emigrated to the US after being interned here in the States as a prisoner of war. Having been captured in North Africa, as a member of the Africa Corp. I met his father some 30 years ago when he came over to look at the HUP at one of the first shows I took it to. His father said he had seen a few of them before, as we talked it came out where.

If winter last two long I may turn the body on its side on the cargo body using the the trucks hydraulic arm and the chain hoist in the shop bay. If I can figure out the mid-line CG this might be the most practical.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Today pulled the engine out of the chassis, must say it is a lot easier pulling the engine out of chassis rather than out with the body in place. But only easier if you have to body of for another reason.

Pictures below show the process, the engine balance rig is one I made specifically for pulling engine out of CMPs. When pulling engine with the body in place you need to remove the valve cover and position the balance bar down just clear of the valve train. The attachment points are the bolts holes on the top of the bell housing and down on the sides of the front engine mount. This makes the chains clear everything.

Engine is now sitting on an engine stand so that it can be cleaned, tested and moved around easily.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Amazing....!!!!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Been busy out in the shop but a bit slow on posting activity, first I need to update the time lapse video photo video part of the problem is the size of the thing it is now comprised of over 2000 individual photos.

Visible progress has slowed down a bit as I have gone over to a work plan of cleaning parts as I remove them. Methods of cleaning parts could be a separate thread in the Restoration Forum what works and what doesn’t. Got a kick out of Paul’s M 37 resto in new brunswick with the pump on his parts cleaning system being dissolve by the cleaner.

I have been using, very hot water, Gunk and Kerosene, what has been working well though for small parts is boiling water and Arm & Hammer washing soda. Large electric fry pan with water and the washing boiling away and just put in the parts and let them boil while I working on other stuff. Then rinse with hot water and parts are generally free of oil, grease and in many cases most of the paint.

Since lifting the body off the chassis was prep to using the high pressure washer with hot water, had to wait until it was warm enough to do out side. Fortunately the weather cooperated with a day in the high 50s.

Once cleaned the chassis was pull back into the shop once again using the winch on the C60L. Then everything that can be unbolted from the frame has been removed.

Only repair work on the frame its self that had to be done was to straighten out the rear cross frame member which showed the evidence of several occasions of unwise attachment of towing chains. The two tow eyes designed for this purpose had been used to mount the turn signals, something I will correct when I reassemble. I considered two methods of repair, one replace the whole cross member the other was to cut straighten and re-weld, the results of cutting and welding look OK and is probably stronger than trying to replace all the rivets.

Rob (or any body else) did you find any crack problems on the frame that I should examine carefully? The frame seems to be quite rigid not like some frames I worked on where when you support the frame at the four corners you can lift one corner up without lifting any others. My frame passes this test, pick up one corner and other corner at that end comes up as well.

Has anybody found a serial number stamped on the frame of later HUPs my understanding is that it should be on the right side near the spring hanger under the drivers area. But I have not found any sign of a number and the area was still coved with paint.

As soon as I update my web page I’ll post the link

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All...Only repair work on the frame its self that had to be done was to straighten out the rear cross frame member which showed the evidence of several occasions of unwise attachment of towing chains. The two tow eyes designed for this purpose had been used to mount the turn signals, something I will correct when I reassemble. I considered two methods of repair, one replace the whole cross member the other was to cut straighten and re-weld, the results of cutting and welding look OK and is probably stronger than trying to replace all the rivets.

Rob (or any body else) did you find any crack problems on the frame that I should examine carefully? The frame seems to be quite rigid not like some frames I worked on where when you support the frame at the four corners you can lift one corner up without lifting any others. My frame passes this test, pick up one corner and other corner at that end comes up as well.

Has anybody found a serial number stamped on the frame of later HUPs my understanding is that it should be on the right side near the spring hanger under the drivers area. But I have not found any sign of a number and the area was still coved with paint. As soon as I update my web page I’ll post the link. Cheers Phil

Phil,

I have not yet seen a serial number stamped onto a HUP frame. I stripped my frame down to the shiny metal and have been all over it like a fat kid on a candy bar. The only stamping I found was an "S" near the front of the truck on the outside of the frame.

Cracking - check the bolt holes in the frame that are located just under the partition wall of the cab. There is a tendancy for the older HUPs to develop cracks that run from the hole to the short side of the frame.

Rear cross member - my 45's rear cross member was pulled backwards which caused the end of the frame to pinch inwards. One of the previous owners welded a tow hitch to the rear rails and welded two support from the hitch to the inside frame rails just before the cross member. It was evident that they towed more than they should have... It took a bit of heating and hammering to get it back into something that looked OK. Considering that that cross member is rarely seen, a good coat of paint will make it look "normal".

The tow eyes are interesting. You should have gusset plates rivetted to the end of the frame rails. I posted photos of my 45's "eyes" and how I replaced the gusset rivets with round headed bolts. Please post a photo of your "eyes" - I want to see if they were as distorted as my 45's were.

Interesting work and great memories of my early restoration (great now, but not so great then...).

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Below are pictures of the two areas you mentioned the tow rings and the cross member area just under the driver back wall. I have not seen any evidence of problems, guess my HUP as lived a more sheltered life despite a lot of off roading. I guess I abused it in the way that it was designed to be used, as compared to the many HUPs that were made into tow trucks by local garages.

Next area of discussion I want to bring up is what I've found as paint colors. My frame was primed with black paint, possibly not true primer as it is a gloss black, this was over sprayed with a layer of Olive Drab which was unevenly applied some areas missed completely and others nearly an 1/8" thick.

It is obvious that the frame and parts bolted to it were sprayed OD before assembly then the whole underside was sprayed again once assemble. This is evident because the engine which was painted black had OD over spray shadow areas from the splash shields.

Transmission, bell housing, transfer case appear to just have been painted with OD. They had to have been painted before installation because there is paint in hidden areas.

Cheers Phil

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Rob

Below are pictures of the two areas you mentioned the tow rings and the cross member area just under the driver back wall. I have not seen any evidence of problems, guess my HUP as lived a more sheltered life despite a lot of off roading. I guess I abused it in the way that it was designed to be used, as compared to the many HUPs that were made into tow trucks by local garages. Next area of discussion I want to bring up is what I've found as paint colors. My frame was primed with black paint, possibly not true primer as it is a gloss black, this was over sprayed with a layer of Olive Drab which was unevenly applied some areas missed completely and others nearly an 1/8" thick. It is obvious that the frame and parts bolted to it were sprayed OD before assembly then the whole underside was sprayed again once assemble. This is evident because the engine which was painted black had OD over spray shadow areas from the splash shields.
Transmission, bell housing, transfer case appear to just have been painted with OD. They had to have been painted before installation because there is paint in hidden areas. Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, The discussion on paint could go on for decades...My HUP had brown paint as the primer coat - I have photos of my rear fenders that show brown with green overspray. So, who knows what the norm was? It is all conjecture. Therefore, what ever you paint your truck/engine/tranny matters very little. I am sure that the LADs in the forward area did not give two thoughts to paint when they reassembled components in rebuilt trucks. They probably used whatever they had at hand.

By the way, your tow rings look almost pristine...Have you given any thought as to the nice hole arrangement found on the center of the last cross member of the later models of HUPs? I heard theories that they were bolt holes for a tow hook, but think that if it was, that area would have been properly reinforced. As well, the last cross member is tucked in under the rear body making it very difficult to reach. My HUP also has the chain locker located under the body leaving very little room for a tow hook.

Any theories about those holes?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

You are correct about the paint, I truly believe that there were CMPs primed in pink paint. If paint got mixed wrong I'm sure it was used.

Reason I bring up the colors on my HUP is that its history is known almost from the day it was built. So I am very sure that it has not been disassembled in the past. Paint I am finding underneath is the paint that put on at the factory.

Got to find out what paint was used on the springs, looks like the individuals leafs were painted in a thin black paint then the assembled springs were painted OD.

About the holes in the rear cross member they are my list of wonder why they did that. I agree with you that if they are for a tow attachment they would have to be reinforced inside the rail. Also the clearance for a pintol hook and the underside of the body would be very tight. I think the answer may lie in the parts manual for the HUP and for the C15A. I've got the 1945 HUP parts manual, but I don't have a C15A parts manual.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... getting too old to put up with the snowy commute...

About 8 sticky inches right now turning to heavy rain.... not sure if I should get the snow blower ready or the sump pump.

On a more serious note.....

have you had a look at Stovebolt recently.... engine shop.... goot information on Carter YF carbs.....

...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... ...
...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

My response to Bob while MLU was down. (glad it is back)

We have as you seen my comments had ethanol in our gas in the states for a number of years and they are even talking about going up to 15 % which will cause a new round of problems.



In short 10 or 15 % ethanol gas will EAT AND DISTROY ALL RUBBER FUEL LINE PARTS not designed for it. This can happen depending on the part in as little as one tank of gas. I’ve gone through and replaced all rubber fuel line parts with Gates hose rated for it. Watch out for discount or un-marked hose. Buy a known brand which is marked. Particularly watch out for the mechanical fuel pumps for get NOS fuel pumps unless you replace the diaphragm with one made of the new material. I’m going over to electric fuel pumps.

Other than that the only problem I’ve had with the truck is that the stuff goes stale in the carbs quick, but the electric fuel pump seems to solve that problem as it pushes some fresh gas in when the turn on the pump.

After responding to Bob I got another e-mail about this issue with and interesting link http://cckw.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4732.

This if the joy of E10 and E15 is spreading to Canada this topic deserves its own heading not sure what category it should go under. Suggestions?

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

When we last left our story the poor BEAST the chassis was lounging around the barn in the nude, stripped of most of its parts. (pict) Now it axles and spring assemblies have been removed. Axle housing are all cleaned sanded and ready for paint, more on that in a moment.

With everything that can be unbolted from the chassis removed the frame is really pretty easy to handle (pict ) shows the frame hanging from its CG with the ratchet strap only keeping it from doing a titer totter act. The chain fall holding this is the same one I use for engine pulls and is rated at 500-700 lbs. I make note of the CG locations of the heavier components as it makes handling them alone much easier. Once you know where the CG is pretty easy to flip the frame over or stand it on edge to work on it. (pict)

Which is heavier on a HUP the individual axle assemblies or the engine transmission group? Answer the axle assembly by a large margin. To pick up either front or rear axle assemblies with the chain fall had to remove tires and brake drums. With out lightening them all I was doing was climbing the chain.

Once it axles can be lifted I hung them from the chain fall supporting some of the weight on sawhorse to clean and get them ready for paint. (pict)

Getting to the correct OD color is the next step I’ve been taking photos of various protected locations on the HUP during the dis-assembly places where dirt, air, and light has left it alone places such as tight fitting body parts, under mud flaps etc. These I’m trying to match up with OD paint colors and spec numbers that the local paint store can mix. (pict) this picture is rather small and may loose something in the smaller size for MLU, so I’ll post it at a higher resolution on my web site this week end.

Progress has slowed now that I’ve gotten to the real mechanical parts because I changed over to clean parts as I work instead of just disassembling everything then starting to clean. Without really cleaning stuff I can see what needs to be replaced or reworked.

Stay tuned for more of the saga of three CMPs living in the woods of New Hampshire.

Cheers Phi