New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Below are pictures of the two areas you mentioned the tow rings and the cross member area just under the driver back wall. I have not seen any evidence of problems, guess my HUP as lived a more sheltered life despite a lot of off roading. I guess I abused it in the way that it was designed to be used, as compared to the many HUPs that were made into tow trucks by local garages.

Next area of discussion I want to bring up is what I've found as paint colors. My frame was primed with black paint, possibly not true primer as it is a gloss black, this was over sprayed with a layer of Olive Drab which was unevenly applied some areas missed completely and others nearly an 1/8" thick.

It is obvious that the frame and parts bolted to it were sprayed OD before assembly then the whole underside was sprayed again once assemble. This is evident because the engine which was painted black had OD over spray shadow areas from the splash shields.

Transmission, bell housing, transfer case appear to just have been painted with OD. They had to have been painted before installation because there is paint in hidden areas.

Cheers Phil

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Rob

Below are pictures of the two areas you mentioned the tow rings and the cross member area just under the driver back wall. I have not seen any evidence of problems, guess my HUP as lived a more sheltered life despite a lot of off roading. I guess I abused it in the way that it was designed to be used, as compared to the many HUPs that were made into tow trucks by local garages. Next area of discussion I want to bring up is what I've found as paint colors. My frame was primed with black paint, possibly not true primer as it is a gloss black, this was over sprayed with a layer of Olive Drab which was unevenly applied some areas missed completely and others nearly an 1/8" thick. It is obvious that the frame and parts bolted to it were sprayed OD before assembly then the whole underside was sprayed again once assemble. This is evident because the engine which was painted black had OD over spray shadow areas from the splash shields.
Transmission, bell housing, transfer case appear to just have been painted with OD. They had to have been painted before installation because there is paint in hidden areas. Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, The discussion on paint could go on for decades...My HUP had brown paint as the primer coat - I have photos of my rear fenders that show brown with green overspray. So, who knows what the norm was? It is all conjecture. Therefore, what ever you paint your truck/engine/tranny matters very little. I am sure that the LADs in the forward area did not give two thoughts to paint when they reassembled components in rebuilt trucks. They probably used whatever they had at hand.

By the way, your tow rings look almost pristine...Have you given any thought as to the nice hole arrangement found on the center of the last cross member of the later models of HUPs? I heard theories that they were bolt holes for a tow hook, but think that if it was, that area would have been properly reinforced. As well, the last cross member is tucked in under the rear body making it very difficult to reach. My HUP also has the chain locker located under the body leaving very little room for a tow hook.

Any theories about those holes?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

You are correct about the paint, I truly believe that there were CMPs primed in pink paint. If paint got mixed wrong I'm sure it was used.

Reason I bring up the colors on my HUP is that its history is known almost from the day it was built. So I am very sure that it has not been disassembled in the past. Paint I am finding underneath is the paint that put on at the factory.

Got to find out what paint was used on the springs, looks like the individuals leafs were painted in a thin black paint then the assembled springs were painted OD.

About the holes in the rear cross member they are my list of wonder why they did that. I agree with you that if they are for a tow attachment they would have to be reinforced inside the rail. Also the clearance for a pintol hook and the underside of the body would be very tight. I think the answer may lie in the parts manual for the HUP and for the C15A. I've got the 1945 HUP parts manual, but I don't have a C15A parts manual.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... getting too old to put up with the snowy commute...

About 8 sticky inches right now turning to heavy rain.... not sure if I should get the snow blower ready or the sump pump.

On a more serious note.....

have you had a look at Stovebolt recently.... engine shop.... goot information on Carter YF carbs.....

...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Hi Phil
Snow day here for me.... ...
...which brings me to my ?????

Regular gasoline and mid range gasoline in Canada have a sticker that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol....... BUT NOT ON THE HIGH OCTANE PUMP.

Is it safe to assume that hi-octane gasoline has NO "deathanol".... and would be more appropriate for our trucks....?

Sound too simplistic.

Bob

My response to Bob while MLU was down. (glad it is back)

We have as you seen my comments had ethanol in our gas in the states for a number of years and they are even talking about going up to 15 % which will cause a new round of problems.



In short 10 or 15 % ethanol gas will EAT AND DISTROY ALL RUBBER FUEL LINE PARTS not designed for it. This can happen depending on the part in as little as one tank of gas. I’ve gone through and replaced all rubber fuel line parts with Gates hose rated for it. Watch out for discount or un-marked hose. Buy a known brand which is marked. Particularly watch out for the mechanical fuel pumps for get NOS fuel pumps unless you replace the diaphragm with one made of the new material. I’m going over to electric fuel pumps.

Other than that the only problem I’ve had with the truck is that the stuff goes stale in the carbs quick, but the electric fuel pump seems to solve that problem as it pushes some fresh gas in when the turn on the pump.

After responding to Bob I got another e-mail about this issue with and interesting link http://cckw.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4732.

This if the joy of E10 and E15 is spreading to Canada this topic deserves its own heading not sure what category it should go under. Suggestions?

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

When we last left our story the poor BEAST the chassis was lounging around the barn in the nude, stripped of most of its parts. (pict) Now it axles and spring assemblies have been removed. Axle housing are all cleaned sanded and ready for paint, more on that in a moment.

With everything that can be unbolted from the chassis removed the frame is really pretty easy to handle (pict ) shows the frame hanging from its CG with the ratchet strap only keeping it from doing a titer totter act. The chain fall holding this is the same one I use for engine pulls and is rated at 500-700 lbs. I make note of the CG locations of the heavier components as it makes handling them alone much easier. Once you know where the CG is pretty easy to flip the frame over or stand it on edge to work on it. (pict)

Which is heavier on a HUP the individual axle assemblies or the engine transmission group? Answer the axle assembly by a large margin. To pick up either front or rear axle assemblies with the chain fall had to remove tires and brake drums. With out lightening them all I was doing was climbing the chain.

Once it axles can be lifted I hung them from the chain fall supporting some of the weight on sawhorse to clean and get them ready for paint. (pict)

Getting to the correct OD color is the next step I’ve been taking photos of various protected locations on the HUP during the dis-assembly places where dirt, air, and light has left it alone places such as tight fitting body parts, under mud flaps etc. These I’m trying to match up with OD paint colors and spec numbers that the local paint store can mix. (pict) this picture is rather small and may loose something in the smaller size for MLU, so I’ll post it at a higher resolution on my web site this week end.

Progress has slowed now that I’ve gotten to the real mechanical parts because I changed over to clean parts as I work instead of just disassembling everything then starting to clean. Without really cleaning stuff I can see what needs to be replaced or reworked.

Stay tuned for more of the saga of three CMPs living in the woods of New Hampshire.

Cheers Phi

[Ganmain Tony]

Gday Phil,

I know its probably been said before but I'm particularly enjoying this thread as its very informative and I'm learning a bit....so thankyou..

Fantastic colour chart youve posted. My frustration with colours for the trucks is many....if I vent a little here its not directed at you or anyone else for that matter...just searching for a solution.

If I print this colour chart and show it to blokes who mix paint, its still not going to come out exact.

If I get an original sample of paint and a paint guy matches it........its still not going to come out exact.

You and I order the same colour, from the same paint manufacturer, made the same way, the same type (two pack, enamel, whatever) in two seperate batches.......its still not exact.

Solutions??? Or is that just how it is and its like the changing of the tides....have to leave it be.

[Phil Waterman]

Started really testing the engine out the HUP to see what needs to be rebuilt. Known problems:

1. Oil leaks, front and rear main seals, valve cover, side cover
2. Beginning of a little exhaust smoke
3. Exhaust manifold leaks - big time
4. Replace all rubber parts just from age
5. Engine has never had detergent oil
6. Non hardened valves or seats

Other work suspected as this engine

1. Put the original carb back on it - swap the orginal carb for one the C60S as the bigger carb needed the better carb when it had the 216
2. Lower than desired compression more on this below
3. Valve wear, from the 216 in the C60S which spent its entire life at full throttle or idle, valve wear or valve recession is a real problem compounded by the hotter burning gas now.

This engine has never been out of the HUP or apart, this is my from my direct knowledge 1979-now and from talking with the previous owner 1946-1978. I've never even had the head off or dropped the oil pan. Previous owner thought the head was replaced at one point. I've never wanted to mess with success by taking the thing apart, it just runs so nice.

As this particular HUP is basically as original as is likely to be encountered I am very reluctant to replace any thing that can be rebuilt and reused. (See genuine or repro ??? That is the question ! http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16343 interesting thread)

This includes the engine, so diagnostics before the rebuild I hope will help keep it as original as possible while stopping the oil leaks and ensuring the same level of reliability it has demonstrated over the last 66 years.

Anyway the engine is now completely set up on an engine test stand and can be run, while having full access to the engine top, sides, and bottom not something easily done in the HUP. First thing was bring the engine up to operation temperature with the oil temp fully equalized with the water at 180-185 F used an IR gun get the temps.

I discovered why it is so hard to get a CMP up to temp and equalized with out driving in on the road. It is difficult to get it up to temperature and actually equalized even with the grill completely covered. The design of the fan shroud results in a significant reverse air flow coming forward through the radiator at the top and bottom corners. This air is then sucked back through the center, radiator enclosure which provides 4-8 inches of space between the grill and radiator for this air circulation. Even with the grill area covered this counter airflow allows/causes a significant temp delta from top to bottom. A thin sheet of card stock/poster board slid directly down the front of the radiator will block the counter flow if there is space for it.

Anyway after finally getting the engine equalized at 185 shut it down and did a series of compression tests. Valve lift or cam lobe wear measurement. What I found for valve clearance, and oil pressure to time, oil temp and water temp test.

I'll post the rest of the engine measurements over on my web site because they are on a spread sheet and every time I tried to past the results here the formatting fell apart. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Margaret my wife has been on vacation this week so have not been out in the shop. But what I have done is updated and modified my web page. Which has included adding some more videos and lot more detailed photos.

Overhaul Page One http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm

Overhaul Page Two http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

One of the things I've added is the first round of engine tests.

Along with lot of minor corrections.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Over the last week or so I've been busy on the HUP over haul, disassembled and inspected transfer case, transmission, rear brake drums, and today started on the body.

I've clean up and added to my overhaul web pages http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

No real problems with the transmission only real work was welding back a little material on the reverse lock out, which was surprisingly worn. One comment I will make to anybody planning to work on your transmission. Before you remove the cover put the transmission in the neutral position before you unbolt it and lift it off. Then take a good picture of the position of the shift forks and of the position of the gears. Saves time on reassembly because there is not a picture in most manuals.

Of the 4 rear wheel bearings only one needs to be replaced as the race is slightly pitted, only one roller has a mark on it. Plan to replace the race and the bearing as a set.


The pictures below though show today's project rolling the body on it's side in the bed of C60L.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've been looking for replacement bushings for the springs, spring shackles, and frame mounts for the HUP for a month or so, also wanted to replace the rear spring pins. Big problem I have had is everywhere I checked they had parts listed only by applications. Even searching on the web I was not finding what I needed in the form of dimensional listing. Found some but I didn't have much faith in their knowledge of what they were selling example finding one list where all the bushings had larger IDs than ODs. A couple of the really big bushing makers would make any size you wanted generally minimum of 100.

Anyway found a couple of promising old parts houses and to really see if they had the parts needed I did a small CAD drawing with photos of the parts. But before sent them out, I called the major heavy truck spring shop for the state and asked if they had size listings they responded sure so I sent them the drawing in an e-mail. They called back and said think we have everything you need so I went over this afternoon with all the bits. Guy takes me out to the parts bins 12 new brass bushings and 6 new rear spring pins total cost $92.68. Now that I have the part numbers I could actually look them up and discovered they are readily available. But the real surprise was the local heavy truck gave me shop price instead of the list. So the LHE bushings that list for $12.35 then sold them to me at $4.35.

The only not exact match was the pins which have a different pin bolt grove size. Which will be easy to work around.

So now I can start reassembling the chassis.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Well with tomorrow marking the 1 year anniversary of my Overhaul of my HUP BEAST figured it was time to get back into the habit of posting work progress and interesting findings. So here goes over the last few days I have started posting progress in sections. Monthly or bimonthly not all the pages are populated with data yet but I’m working on it and will be filling in the missing pages and adding photos and narrative to all the pages.

Dec 2010 to March 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm
Continued http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm
April 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ril%20Work.htm
May 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...May%20Work.htm
June 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0June%20Wo.htm
July 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...uly%20Work.htm
August September 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ber%20Work.htm
October November 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...vemberWork.htm
December 2011 the engine runs again http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%209.htm


Part of the cause for the long delay was I had collected to many photos and the hard drive became overfull to the extent that I could not really sort or edit the pictures that problem has been solved with a three Terabyte hard drive.

Hope to be better about catching up and keeping current on progress. To all of you who I have promised photo details on wiring harness and cable routing I have not forgotten and will take those photos when I bring the chassis back into the main shop. The chassis is currently parked in garage bay my regular car should be parked.


April Work - Page 3 was centered around the Transmission, Spring Shackles, Cleaning and Painting of the bottom of the body, Engine Testing then disassembly.
May Work - Page 4 included finding a replacement cylinder head, finding and installing spring shackle bushings and pins. Cleaning and painting the frame,
June Work - Page 5 painting and body work begins and trying to match the original color of the HUP, brake work, reassembly of the axle assembly. July Work - Page 6 handling painting and body how do you pick up and turn a HUP body on its side by yourself. Machining the hardened steel spring shackles. Pictures of the wooden blocks used as frame inserts at the attachment locations. Brake line installation
August & September Work - Page 7 engine comes back from the machine shop almost ready for reassembly before the problems start. Body lowered on to the body for fitting and further body work, which included replacing some rusted damaged areas. Updated 12/10/11
October & November Work - Page 8 body work continues, repairing the fatigue cracks in the front door where the hinges attach, a common CMP problem, installation of chassis parts like shocks. Problems with assembly of the engine but in the end everything is fitted in place. Updated 12/10/11
December Work - Page 9 engine assembly completed and run in started on the test stand. Hidden design surprises in the CMP adaptation of the Stovebolt 6. Work on the chassis nearing completion with only a little painting and the installation of the wiring harness to be done. Body is ready to be primed and painted. Updated 12/10/11 Not all of these pages have been loaded yet