New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul - Page 3

Bob Carriere · #61 21-04-11, 22:10

Around our area 10 or 20 or 30 non-detergent oil is readily available from farm tractor shops..... stock item for all the old tractor being used.... they claim it leaks less than the detergent stuff.

Phil no doubt that a good functioning PCV system would reduce a lot of deposits....also the fact that when you do run them they are very quickly at there proper operating temperature with the low gearing and tight engine compartment.

On repairing a crack and having it done by a competent machine shop..... I don't think Alex has priced the hourly rates they charge recently ($100 + -)..... Welding the crack, having the head pressure tested and magnafluxed and machining the valve area and installing a new valve seat...... may be cheaper to find another head ........ there is not much market demand for old 216 heads and full engines are usually less than $250...... shipping is the killer.

Offer still stands for parts.....

Bob

Bob C.

Phil Waterman · #62 21-04-11, 22:42

Hi All

Well I got lucky Obsolete Chevy Parts out of Nashville, Georgia http://www.obschevy.com/index.html had 24 NOS Heads in stock, now they have 23. Numbers say this should fit all 216 41-53 though it will need the later valves which is fine because I was going to replace the valves anyway.

I've had good luck finding odd parts from them in the past, they're the same out fit I got the main shaft for the transmission a couple of years ago, along with some other bits.

Thanks Bob and Alex- I thought about having the head welded and new seats machined in and I suspect with the other work the head would need any way like new valve guides and having the face as well as the intake and exhaust area ground to get good seals that a new head will be about the same cost or cheaper.

Will let you all know as soon as it comes in.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #63 27-04-11, 23:04

Hi All

One of our moderators thought the topic of Welding deserved its own Thread so it has moved to http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16503

So follow over there for thoughts on welding.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #64 27-04-11, 23:37

On Tuesday I finished tearing the engine down in general it was in surprisingly good condition, measured all the bearings on the crank and they all are measure within .005 of being completely round no real scoring or wear evident but a chip missing from #2 and #3 the thrust bearing as a line across it that looks like a plastic gage line. Did they use plastic gage in 1945? All the bearing shells are market GM with uniform shimming.

The camshaft measures good but looks ugly, so I think I'll let the machines decide what to do with it.

The cylinders had little or no ring ridge though they did have a gum/varnish line above the rings that had to be cleaned off. Used the ridge removing tool but could have removed what was there with a razor blade. All the crank journals look good and measure as being nearly true in diameters what is strange though is that they vary in size one to the next. All the connecting rods have Babbitted bearings the # 1 lower was compete when removed but then started falling apart. See picture. As soon as the new head arrives I'll get the block and parts up to the machine shop.

Today we had our first really warm day 70+ so I pulled the body out of the shop to use the pressure washer on it. As warm water works better than cold for cleaning parts I have added an adjustable hot water tap out side. Used it for the first time today. Really seemed to clean better and it is a lot nicer getting splashed with 105 degree water than the 45-50 degree that normally comes out of the pressure washer.

Cheers

Phil Waterman · #65 30-04-11, 23:39

Hi All

Well I ordered a new head on the 21st and it arrived on 29th. Picture below shows the thing leaning against the shop when I got home on Friday. Had all sorts of labels warning the UPS driver about the weight 71 lbs, use hand cart, lift with knees etc. Appears well packaged rapped in many layers of corrugated card board and wood. Only got through the first layers of cardboard still have to clean the cosmoline off it.

Then I'll load it the block, crank, cam and head in the car and haul it to the machine shop.

Cheers Phil

cliff · #66 17-10-11, 01:25

Hi Phil any more progress on this rebuild?

Phil Waterman · #67 17-10-11, 17:02

Hi Cliff

I have been working away on it though I did not make my target completion date of the end of July. Work on the HUP has been going well with a few real twists and turns. What really has fallen behind though is posting progress photos to MLU and to my web site.

The back log of photos (about 1500) taken of progress and details is huge, now that cold weather will soon be on us, I'll try and get caught up.

And thanks for asking how the project was coming.

Cheers Phil

cliff · #68 17-10-11, 19:18

I am glad to hear that progress is going well and look forward to seeing the posts when you have the time to catch up.

Phil Waterman · #69 10-12-11, 22:51

Hi All

Well with tomorrow marking the 1 year anniversary of my Overhaul of my HUP BEAST figured it was time to get back into the habit of posting work progress and interesting findings. So here goes over the last few days I have started posting progress in sections. Monthly or bimonthly not all the pages are populated with data yet but I’m working on it and will be filling in the missing pages and adding photos and narrative to all the pages.

Dec 2010 to March 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm
Continued http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm
April 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ril%20Work.htm
May 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...May%20Work.htm
June 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...0June%20Wo.htm
July 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...uly%20Work.htm
August September 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ber%20Work.htm
October November 2011 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...vemberWork.htm
December 2011 the engine runs again http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%209.htm

Part of the cause for the long delay was I had collected to many photos and the hard drive became overfull to the extent that I could not really sort or edit the pictures that problem has been solved with a three Terabyte hard drive.

Hope to be better about catching up and keeping current on progress. To all of you who I have promised photo details on wiring harness and cable routing I have not forgotten and will take those photos when I bring the chassis back into the main shop. The chassis is currently parked in garage bay my regular car should be parked.

April Work - Page 3 was centered around the Transmission, Spring Shackles, Cleaning and Painting of the bottom of the body, Engine Testing then disassembly.
May Work - Page 4 included finding a replacement cylinder head, finding and installing spring shackle bushings and pins. Cleaning and painting the frame,
June Work - Page 5 painting and body work begins and trying to match the original color of the HUP, brake work, reassembly of the axle assembly. July Work - Page 6 handling painting and body how do you pick up and turn a HUP body on its side by yourself. Machining the hardened steel spring shackles. Pictures of the wooden blocks used as frame inserts at the attachment locations. Brake line installation
August & September Work - Page 7 engine comes back from the machine shop almost ready for reassembly before the problems start. Body lowered on to the body for fitting and further body work, which included replacing some rusted damaged areas. Updated 12/10/11
October & November Work - Page 8 body work continues, repairing the fatigue cracks in the front door where the hinges attach, a common CMP problem, installation of chassis parts like shocks. Problems with assembly of the engine but in the end everything is fitted in place. Updated 12/10/11
December Work - Page 9 engine assembly completed and run in started on the test stand. Hidden design surprises in the CMP adaptation of the Stovebolt 6. Work on the chassis nearing completion with only a little painting and the installation of the wiring harness to be done. Body is ready to be primed and painted. Updated 12/10/11 Not all of these pages have been loaded yet

Phil Waterman · #70 10-12-11, 23:19

Progress up date-the Engine Runs for the 1st time after rebuild http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...9th%202011.wmv . Not bad sounding if I do say so myself, no exhaust pipe, timing not dialed in yet, pulling 17-18 inches, oil pressure at start 42 PSI. No clanking little valve noise but clearances were set with the engine at room temperature just as a starting point. Prelubed the oil system with drill and heated the block with a block heater to 110 before starting.

Only issue noted was a drop in oil pressure at idle once engine had equalized at 180F. This I suspect is because of missing restriction orifice in the filter system. See more photos ( http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20December.htm )

Problem is with the T fitting coming out of the block for the filter and oil pressure gauge, original has a restriction orifice in the line to the filter. Has anybody else found one of these. I replace the fitting for two reasons one I could not get it back in position because of the through block oil line. The other was that this same fitting on my Pattern 12 failed early in testing that engine and it emptied the crankcase very quickly.

I plan to run the engine some more to see if it drops below the 15 PSI I saw once the engine was up to temperature at idle. Plan then to put an restriction orifice, with the same size hole as the original,in the supply line to the filter and see if that changes the pressure drop once the engine oil is up to temperature.

More to follow

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #71 14-12-11, 01:06

Hi All

Ran the engine for the HUP on the test stand for 4 hours yesterday. Engine started easily and ran very smooth accept at very low RPMs when there was a decided flick to the vacuum gauge and rough note to the engine exhaust note. Possibly a valve that is not quite sealing possible cause in proper valve adjustment. Will need to check the valve tappet settings after next engine test, once the engine is up to fully equalize temperature.

Concerning my last posting about the restriction in line to the oil filter. Took a bunch of fittings and made up a valved bypass to see if the restriction makes any difference in the oil pressure. Simple answer no difference cold oil 40F or 140F open close the valve so oil is going through the restriction or not.

Once engine is at full temperature 160-180F the oil pressure at 400-500 RPM is steady between 7-10 PSI which is a little lower than I expected for a freshly machined engine with all the bearing clearances by the book. But before I get to worried about try a different oil pressure gauge, first the one out the HUP (0-80 PSI range) vs (5-100 PSI) of the gauge on the test stand.

With the engine running on the test stand and the exhaust pipe hard piped out side the engine can be run with the shop closed up. A 216 running from 400 to 1200 RPM and the fan cooling the radiator heats the shop very nicely, the furnace never came on.

Cheer Phil

Phil Waterman · #72 25-12-11, 23:30

Hi All

Well it has been a little over a year since I started on this project and on this fine Christmas Day sitting by the fire I was reading MLU and checking my e-mail when among other seasonal greetings I had an note from Pieter in the Netherlands about removing the nose on a HUP.

So I have updated my first HUP overhaul page (the page http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm headed) to pay more attention to that step, with pictures on bolt locations and a video of the nose removal on a Pattern 13 video http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ose%20Pull.wmv time lapse http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ll%20HIRes.wmv.

More important is the step by step of the process

Steps in removing the nose from Pattern 13 Cab these are sort of a composite of doing this several times. Before you start make sure that your lifting hoist will be able to lift the nose straight up until the bottom clears the top of the radiator.
1. Disconnect and remove the marker lights
2. Disconnect the Headlight wiring harness both sides of the engine compartment under hood.
3. Disconnect or remove the horn wire to the steering column
4. Disconnect and slide coolant recovery rubber hose from radiator connection
5. Remove Throttle linkage that comes through the floor from the peddle
6. Remove the forward floor panel under brake and clutch peddles.
7. Remove the short front fender sections and the inner splash shields on side of radiator.
8. Remove front brush guard or remove entire bumper by unbolting the two tow ring assemble remember to support this assembly when removing the bolts.(see time-lapse) for hoist pickup
9. Remove the center nose bolt and spring under center of grill.
10. Rig nose for lifting I use ratchet cargo straps hook two through your lift hook down to the nose side vent doors, cushion straps and hooks with rags if you are concerned about scratches. Then run a third cargo strap down to the front so that you can get a good balance front and back. Take a slight load on your lift hook.
11. At this point you must decide what your are going to do about brake and clutch peddles. Choices remove completely, disconnect the linkages and let them swing forward and down clear of the nose.
12. Remove the nose bolts on the sides and across under the windscreen.
13. Take a little more strain on your lift hook. The nose has a rubber strip between the nose and the body which with age and paint may be holding the nose from moving, carefully pry the edge apart.
14. Nose assembly is meant to come forward about 2 inches then go straight up until it clears the top of the radiator. (Be very careful of the radiator)
15. If you get the nose to this point and it will move a little but doesn't want to come free you probably missed one or more bolts. If it moves up several inches then stops you've probably missed a wire or hose.
16. Other things that hang up shroud between the grill and radiator, some come out with removing, some are welded in place. The radiator cross bar can hang up.

What did I leave out?

Bob Carriere · #73 26-12-11, 04:49

What size hammer do you use when you run out of patience....?

Readers have to appreciate that most if not all the bull work done by Phil is solo.....one man show...... all by his lonesome...... with out breaking anything or hurting himself......

Kudo !!!!!

Bob C.

Phil Waterman · #74 26-12-11, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

What size hammer do you use when you run out of patience....?

Readers have to appreciate that most if not all the bull work done by Phil is solo.....one man show...... all by his lonesome...... with out breaking anything or hurting himself......

Kudo !!!!!

Bob C.

Happy Boxing Day Bob

I keep all the hammers locked in a drawer with the key in the house so when I get to the point of want to hit something I have to walk to the house to get the key. But more seriously when I get to that point of looking for a bigger hammer I try to remember to quit for the day and come back and look at in the morning, found this cuts down on broken parts and trips to the emergency room.

About working alone, not by choice, I'm just not as lucky, as you, there just are not the same number of CMP nuts lurking in the woods of New Hampshire. The Hammond Barn Crew is also very lucky to have someone to host such a group.

I would like to add that MLU and all it's members is one of the things that has really kept the fun in working on what is a rather obscure military vehicle here in the states. I general start my day by looking to see what you guys all over the world have been up to while I slept and then at the end of the day catch up on whats been going on during the day.

Cheers and more power to you all Phil

Bob Carriere · #75 24-02-12, 02:40

Better get your shovel ready...... more of the wonderful white stuff is coming your way......

We should get about 8 inches of the sticky wet stuff tomorrow.

We have set up fans at the barn and will try blowing it East as I hear Vermont and New Hampshire needs it for the ski slopes.

Need to spend an hour outside tonite to prepare for the snow storm.

Around here we lay down newspaper all over the long driveway...... so in the morning we just roll up the newspaper and put it all in the garbage.

The City of Montreal have a similar way for keeping the downtown area snow free...... they park all the City trucks side by each in the busy streets.... soon as the storm is over they just drive them away.

Hope you have food stock piled..... or beer anyways.

Bob

jason meade · #76 25-02-12, 14:29

Dont think you have much to worry about with the snow,It hit here late last night with the furrey of a field mouse....just enough to cover the car, bright blue skys now.

Bob Carriere · #77 25-02-12, 15:27

....most East board airports were jammed.....

We got 6 inches of very heavy sticky snow......some drifting.

I fear the Vermont New Hampshire region may have taken the brunt of it.....

No word from Phil he may be buried in the white stuff....

Well I am off for a ride on the snow blower.....

Bob

Phil Waterman · #78 26-02-12, 00:32

Hi Bob

No we didn't get the snow we did get about 12 hours of very high wind with snow mixed in but non of the snow got to the ground just blew by traveling horizontal.

Total snow for the year 30" and 24" of that was in October.

The real reason for no response was two fold, a week with that nasty respiratory illness. At the same time my internet got the intermittent flu meaning that our connection never lasted long enough to read all the way through the new post on MLU inevitably as soon as I type up a response I'd loose the connection.

Fix for the internet flu was replace 200' of buried phone cable, and all the phone wiring in the house. Fortunately when redid the power service to put in transfer switch I buried and empty conduit.

The wind is strange though very strong and blustery and we don't have any politicians in the state.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #79 26-02-12, 04:17

....and blew everything to the Atlantic.

Got bad here from about 5 pm Friday....rush hour..... to about 7 pm then died out.

Still had 5 inches of wet stuff to blow off the driveway...... and the neighbour id his back so I did his drive way and he was suppose to do the other neighbour's driveway will he is away in Flawreedah..... so did it all.

Back in the barn tomorrow for some sanity..... Rob should be in for treatment as well......

Hope you are feeling better with that wrespeetory hillnest.....

Thinking of removing some leaf springs of my cab 11 suspension....... wont need them now that I have lost weight......

Bob

Stuart Fedak · #80 26-02-12, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Thinking of removing some leaf springs of my cab 11 suspension....... wont need them now that I have lost weight......

Bob

Bob, Are you thinking of making one of those weight loss and CMP excerise DVD to sell on TV. I think you may have created a market.

"My dear, if I buy some of those old trucks to work on in the garage, perhaps I will lose some weight and become as slim and healthy as that Canadian working on CMP in the far North".

I think the Hammond Barn and the New Hamshire CMP Barns may become a new fitness craze........

Cheers!

Stuart

Phil Waterman · #81 26-02-12, 22:56

Hi Guys

You guys are right working in the barn is both sanity and for exercise. Being unable to work in the shop for a couple of weeks was driving me right up the walls. Not sure if working and driving CMPs is exercise or if you have to exercise to work and drive them. My normal exercise program is an hour of exercise class followed by a 2 mile walk and a 2 mile run at the gym three times a week. When I get back from the gym I have to go right out to the barn and start working on the truck because if I sit down I stiffen up.

But I did get back out to the shop this week, first project was redoing the hand throttle on the C60S with the 261 engine. Wanted to get the handle throttle working so didn't have to pull the choke out to get high idle.

The carb for the 235 or 262 comes in several versions mine are the manual choke versions but they don't really have a connection for the hand throttle. In the picture below you can see how I added to the bracket to hold the hand throttle cable and the simple connection to the high idle. I had tried the normal connection down through the throttle but it didn't lineup well so the throttle would catch. This approach seems to work very well.

I've also taken the photos of the Pattern 12 throttle peddle, the gas peddle for the HUP and the passenger hold down. So I will be posting those to the other threads.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #82 27-02-12, 00:10

..... I just need to find as big chested skinny girl to feature in the DVD.....

.....do you know of any.....?

On the sanity side...... I agree with Phil.....missed the Barn tiem last week ti sure was nice to go out there......feed the turkeys in the back field, walk around trying to find amongst the many rolling chassis what a rear axle convoy light looks like and how it is mounted and spend some times in the barn welding up things.

Hope you are feeling better Phil...... I intend to connect my manual throttle as well but not sure how it will work and allow the gas pedal to overide the manual throttle cable.

Life is good.

Bob

Phil Waterman · #83 27-02-12, 18:46

Hi Bob

Though all the my normal 216 engines and carbs have worked well with the hand throttle cable end just going through the hole on the throttle linkage see picture below. You will also note that the washer on the throttle linkage has been brazed to lock its position. This picture is of the side of the HUPs original 216 engine before the overhaul started.

But on the 261 Carb the cable is in just enough different position that it would stick requiring a very stiff return spring that was annoying to drive with, particularly as the throttle/gas peddle now actually is used to regulate speed instead of being an on or off switch.

Using the lever arm which is moved when the choke is out proved to be a simple way to set the idle speed up.

Cheers Phil

Alex Blair (RIP) · #84 27-02-12, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Bob

Though all the my normal 216 engines and carbs have worked well with the hand throttle cable end just going through the hole on the throttle linkage see picture below. You will also note that the washer on the throttle linkage has been brazed to lock its position. This picture is of the side of the HUPs original 216 engine before the overhaul started.

But on the 261 Carb the cable is in just enough different position that it would stick requiring a very stiff return spring that was annoying to drive with, particularly as the throttle/gas peddle now actually is used to regulate speed instead of being an on or off switch.

Using the lever arm which is moved when the choke is out proved to be a simple way to set the idle speed up.

Cheers Phil

Phil...Tell me a story about the gear clamps..two..that around the base of the carb where it joins the manifold..Holding the spacer block together and in place..??and the 1/2" spacer..and the extra thick gasket ..was the carb sitting too low..??
or is that where the fuel injection hooks in..??
New trick..???

Do tell..

Bob Carriere · #85 27-02-12, 22:02

Now that I am using a Carter YF I am not sure how I will connect the manual throttle........ will figure it out and post pictures.

Bob

Phil Waterman · #86 28-02-12, 00:04

Hi Alex

The insulating spacer broke in half while cleaning water out of the carb on the side of the road one day. Didn't have a spare with me so painted the broken ends with Permatex and put a hose clamp on it to hold it till it hardened, long story short I've been driving it that way for probably 15-20 years.

Cheers Phil

Alex Blair (RIP) · #87 28-02-12, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Alex

The insulating spacer broke in half while cleaning water out of the carb on the side of the road one day. Didn't have a spare with me so painted the broken ends with Permatex and put a hose clamp on it to hold it till it hardened, long story short I've been driving it that way for probably 15-20 years.

Cheers Phil

When you know what you are doing..what you need..and how to fix it ,a fix is usually what ever you have in the tool box..under the seat or in the glove box..
If you can cobble up a fix and it works well,if some times pay to leave it..although I would always have a new one stashed in the dash somewhere...
Run'er til she breaks again..and repeat the process..
True grit..!!

motto · #88 28-02-12, 14:41

Hi Phil.
I was intrigued by your experience with the oil pressure readings on your 216. From my observations over many years these engines are unlike any other in the way the lubrication system works. Oil pressure doesn't seem to mean very much.

From my understanding of it, if it wasn't for the distribution valve there would be little or no pressure at all. It's function is virtually that of a relief valve with the oil that passes through the valve being 'dumped' back into the sump via the six big end supply nozzles. Meanwhile the back pressure it creates pushes oil to the main bearings, camshaft bearings and rocker gear. In view of the foregoing I would tend to think that perhaps the value of the distribution valve spring would have a greater effect on oil pressure than engine condition.

I'm not surprised that the oil pressure showed no change when you shut off the flow to the filter as the Military Senior Filter is intended to operate on the bypass principle and has its own built in restriction. The oil has to pass through a tiny hole in the centre tube to exit the filter.

Just a few thoughts on the matter in case you were still mulling things over.

David

Phil Waterman · #89 10-03-12, 21:37

Hi David

You are right about oil pressure on the splash lubrication 216 engines. The book basically says if the pressure gauge shows any pressure it is OK. But that is only the beginning of the story the oil flow inside the engine is amazing. I wanted to understand this better and when I was building up the 216 engine for my Patter 12 I did all the steps called for in the manual and then started documenting what was going on. Take a look at http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/P...Page%20Two.htm which includes a video of the water test for nozzle alignment.

While testing a 216 one time the tee fitting on the side of the block broke off and in a matter of seconds it had pumped most of the oil out of the engine. Fortunately I was standing at the control panel when it happened and hit the kill switch. After that I did a test by pumping the crankcase pan out using the regular oil pump driven at low speed by a drill 5 quarts of hot oil in between 7-10 seconds.

I'll have to add the video of the 216 running with the valve cover off and the transparent side panel that I use to check the push rod function and lubrication.

The inside of the 216 is literally an oil fog when running above idle as the troughs are emptied by the scoops coming through the actual lubrication is of the lower rod ends is by the stream of oil hitting the scoop, which is why correct aiming of the nozzles is so important. Watched this by putting a clear port over the fuel pump mounting hole in the block.

Cheers Phil

Phil Waterman · #90 10-03-12, 21:53

Hi Alex

...
If you can cobble up a fix and it works well,if some times pay to leave it..although I would always have a new one stashed in the dash somewhere...
Run'er til she breaks again..and repeat the process..
True grit..!!

[/QUOTE]

Strangely I found a source for these insulators and the one for the 235 engine with a couple of days of your response.

http://www.classicparts.com/1937-54-...ctinfo/81-211/ http://www.classicparts.com/1954-62-...ctinfo/81-212/

Has anybody used this source http://www.classicparts.com/ if so how did they seem?

Cheers Phil