Aussie Sentinel tanks

[Luke R]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Maybe a mod needs to merg these threads now.

Good idea.

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

The AC3 at the AWM is the original and ONLY wartime AC3 produced: John's was cobbled together several years ago from a few original parts (and lots of other bits and bobs).

The original and only AC3 was gifted to the RAACA Association (NSW Branch) by the then-Director of Armour in the early 1960s and mounted on a plinth on a small hill overlooking Canberra near Duntroon (can't remember the hills name). When that area was redevloped, it was transferred to the AWM, where it stayed on outside display for some years until moved to the Mitchell storage annex. Here it was carefully opened (it had been welded shut in the early 1960s) to reveal very intact and nearly complete internals. It is equipped with a Perrier-Cadillac triple V8.

The most original and complete AC1 is that at the RAC Tank Museum at Bovington.

Mike C

[Mike Cecil]

errr, a small correction: the AWM has one only Australian Cruiser tank: the original and ONLY AC3 produced during WW2. The AWM does not have an AC1.

Regards

Mike C

[Ryan]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the info. We should tell the poms to give us our AC1 back then.
Hopefully the AC3 at the AWM will be on display one day. That Perrier-Cadillac triple V8 would be lovely to see.
As in regards to the x-Belfield AC3, do we have any details on it? It looked to be an original hull. Was the turret original? From memory I don't think it had an engine. And I don't think the gun was original. Still, I like to think of it as an AC3.
Ryan

[Ryan]

Thanks Mike.
So we have 7 then.
AC1 in the UK
AC1 in the USA
AC1 at Puka
AC3 at AWM
AC1 in NSW private hands
AC3 mockup in QLD private hands
E2 hull in VIC private hands

any more?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Last couple of pictures of Australian Cruiser Tank, sparked a memory of photos in a Tank Book printed in the 1980s which I dug out and found it was written by COL Robert J. Icks, Ordnance Corps, U.S. Army who apparently wrote quite a lot on tanks and armored vehicles, web search on his name yielded following tidbit

Icks Collection 70 linear feet
Collection of photographs, books, booklets, and manuscripts covering all aspects of
armored vehicles worldwide. Collected and collated by COL Robert J. Icks, Ordnance Corps,
U.S. Army. The photographs are divided by country and vehicle type. They number well over
10,000. (60 linear feet). Books, pamphlets and manuscripts include rare and one of a kind
items in such languages as French, Russian, Polish, Chinese, Japanese, Finnish, German, Italian,
and English, and are almost exclusive in their dealing with armor and armor development from
1914 to 1980. All included also is negatives for each of the photographs used in the collection.
PATN
ACCESS RESTRICTED http://www.generalpatton.org/educati...Collection.pdf

Pictures are from the book.

Cheers Phil

[Luke R]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Thanks Mike.
So we have 7 then.
AC1 in the UK
AC1 in the USA
AC1 at Puka
AC3 at AWM
AC1 in NSW private hands
AC3 mockup in QLD private hands
E2 hull in VIC private hands

any more?

Well thats over 10% still around.

[matilda IIA]

Hi

Please see below the ID plate on a cut down hull not far from me. Great tracks etc but no internals.

Please note that I have several NOS transfer box's, cross drive shafts, internal gears, and a few rear idlers should you start your restoration before christmas !.

Kind regards
Matt

[Ryan]

Hi Phil,
I can agree on COL icks books. I have one and the info and photos are great.

Hi Matt.
Is this a different hull to the one Ian Fawbert knows of? If so that makes 8 Sentinels!
Hopefully one day me or Luke can come ringing for some of your bits for a resto.

[JackM]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The original and only AC3 was gifted to the RAACA Association (NSW Branch) by the then-Director of Armour in the early 1960s and mounted on a plinth on a small hill overlooking Canberra near Duntroon (can't remember the hills name).

Mike C

Mike,

Mt Pleasant - as you say, it's on the Duntroon perimeter. I remember seeing it there, when I was at RMC in the early 80s.

Jack

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Jack: of course .....Mt Pleasant! Fancy me forgetting that : now the site of the National RAA Memorial, me thinks.

Mike C

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Matt,

Oberon warming up yet after the winter chill???

The AC1 plate: number should be in the range 8001 to 8065 (but it sure does look like a '7', I agree!). The AC3 was 8066.

The Bellfield AC3 was built on one of the many AC3 hulls cast for the project, but never used. Most were scrapped. John recovered his from the Holsworthy Range where it had been used for anti-armour training. As a consequence, a whole lower side panel had to be replaced: no mean effort on a cast tank hull!

As a consequence (of the hull never actually having been built as a 'tank'), I'm not sure I would include it in the list of 'survivors'.

Mike C

[Ryan]

8072?? even though the 8 looks like a 3. Or is the 7 an upside down 4?...with a bit missing.

[Luke R]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The Bellfield AC3 was built on one of the many AC3 hulls cast for the project, but never used. Most were scrapped. John recovered his from the Holsworthy Range where it had been used for anti-armour training. As a consequence, a whole lower side panel had to be replaced: no mean effort on a cast tank hull!

As a consequence (of the hull never actually having been built as a 'tank'), I'm not sure I would include it in the list of 'survivors'.

Mike C

I disagree Mike,
It would be one thing if John made a replica hull or modified the hull of a AC1 to look like the AC3, but it still was cast a AC3 hull during the 40's like every other AC hull.
Its like if i built a Spitfire out of NOS.
Is it a Spitfire? yes
Did it serve or have any history? no

Luke

[matilda IIA]

Hi Guys

The plate is hard to read, (and I have the original photo)

It may read, AC1. No. 8072 or 3072
HULL No BKH48
AH.F. No 57
TLF&E. _ _ _ . MG, Unsure about this line.
_ K _. 70 Unsure about this also


The vehicle is south of sydney, if I am back that way I will take a better photo !

Hi Mike, Very cold and wet here at the moment, great weather to be in the shed working on a real tank.....

Kind regards
Matt

[Luke R]

Originally Posted by matilda IIA

working on a real tank.....
Matt

them fighting words...lol

[Ryan]

Hey guys there's nothing wrong with 1/35 scale. Spent much time building and glueing and painting. Good to look at but not to sit in, they don't last long that way.

[matilda IIA]

Some photos of one of Johns tanks before the turret was fitted,



Kind regards
Matt

[Mike Cecil]

Well, Luke R, that's the beauty of a democracy: we are each allowed to have our views ... on most things, anyway.

Matt: I'd be surprised if its actually 8072: as I said, the Sentinel range was 8001 to 8065, so next time your at KA's, give it a scrub and see if it becomes any clearer (I'm sure he won't mind). Warmer here today: snows even melted, but it is a grey day. I can't retreat to a tank in the shed, alas, I'll just have to do some more 'paperwork' stuff. How's that hanky? Still looking after it well?

Mike C

[Roger Lucy]

Originally Posted by easo

the Sentinals were a technical advancement for their time as they were the first production tank to use both cast hull and turret together.

I think the Ram may have beaten-out the Sentinel as the first production tank with a cast turret and hull. The first Ram prototype was completed on 30 June 1941 and they were in full production by the end of the year. Actually the pre-war French Hotchkiss and Souma tanks had cast hulls and turrets, but their hulls were not cast in one piece.

Did the later Sentinels (AC3 and AC4) with the 25 pounder and 17-pounder guns use the same 54-inch turret ring as the AC1. A 60-inch ring was considered necessary for the Ram's 6-pounder and a three-man crew (although 40 were up-gunned to 75mm).
Roger

[Mike Cecil]

I think what Easo meant to say was that the Sentinel was the first tank to utilise a single casting for the entire hull.

The 'AC4' was, of course, a 'drawing board' tank: it was not actually built. The images that purport to show the AC4 are actually an E series (I think E-3?) test bed hull with a turret casting mounting a 17pdr: it was a concept mock-up only. Note, in the image, the 'stub' of the hull MG mount in the centre front of the hull: a feature of the AC1 deleted in the AC3, and would have been deleted in the AC4 as well, if it had reached prototype stage.

Not sure what the projected turret ring diameter was: will have to check.

Mike C

[Ryan]

According to the link I earlier posted (page 1):

AC3 test rig and production tank had a 54inch ring, same as AC1.
AC4 test rig had a 64inch ring.
AC4 production tanks were to have a 70inch ring.

[ron]

I asked this question some time ago but it seems it was to minor to answer

[matilda IIA]

Actualy they are just near the drivers perescope !
, Pitty to see that ARV standing in the weather, it was a bloody good vehicle....I guess sometimes you can have to much money.
Kind regards

[Mike Cecil]

Is that the ex-JB 'AC3' and Cent ARV in that image??

That is, I seem to remember, 169111: ex-SVN, had a really good history. Not nice to see it 'weathering'.....

Matt: I thought the AC tanks had the hull number stamped on the left side of the hull, on the vertical face of that little 'hump' in the hull adjacent to the drivers/hull gunners positions. Hull number = registration number, with tank type/mark as well, such as 'AC1 8042', or similar.

Mike C

[rmgill]

Hey lads, Coldsteel over at Tank-net says:

The Serial number is usually stamped into each of the three major armour castings. On the top of the Axel Housing at the centre just forward of the join to the hull. On the left hand side of the hull just above the hull-gunner's view port. On the left hand side of the turret just above the armoured cover for the spotlight power lead penetration. It's likely to be of the form:

A.C.I. NO. 8030.
HULL. NO. B.K.H. 38.
A.H. NO. B.K.A.H. 31.
TURRET. NO. B.K.T 35.

The ex-Belfield AC1 no in the US at the MVTF probably has a mismatched turret and the only photos online aren't clear enough to be sure but there appear to be markings on the hull and turret with the hull possibly reading:

ACI 800#
NOT AHT TURRET

Which might indicate it was fitted with a turret that was suitable for training only. The armour of the first dozen or so tanks didn't go through the full heat treatment process. Although it is very faint and might be something else.

[Ryan]

Reading Peter Beale's book 'Fallen Sentinel', which is about Australian tanks during WW2. It is stated during the May 1943 review of Australian production that, ' in regards to the AC3, 200 were on order, 146 hulls and 106 turrets had been cast'.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Ryan,

I doubt the one Matt posted is the same one i know of/know the guy who has one. So, add another to your list in NSW! As to what type it is, i am not sure, nor have i seen the guy again since first posting- but am sure to run into him one day!

Cheers,
Ian.

[Ryan]

Hi Ian, thank you. Chances are it is the remains of an AC1.

So we have 8 then.
AC1 in the UK
AC1 in the USA
AC1 at Puka
AC3 at AWM
2 x AC1 in NSW private hands
AC3 in QLD private hands
E2 hull in VIC private hands

[Ryan]

I went to a property today that has the cut down remains of a Sentinel.
Nothing above the tracks, no original engines and shortened. But it is a sentinel. Owner will remain anonymous. I believe it is no 8028.