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#1
02-02-12, 22:13
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In Bob's original post is the line "Every Australian died for the Australian Flag". It's the sentiment that our troops fought (and died) for the Flag, its a myth, they fought not to let down their mates and they fought for the country, and they mostly they did it under a flag that was not our own. They would have done the same whatever was the design of the cloth at the top of the staff. My comment about Darwin, was to reflect that only on Australian shores or in Australian territories was the National Flag atop the flag staffs during fighting. Maybe I should have said it that way. Yes Broome, Darwin, North West Cape and other places were bombed and mostly fought back. But only Fort Scratchley actually fired back (fought) at a Japanese vessel at sea and in Sydney Harbour the Allied vessels would have been flying the White Ensign of the UK and Commonwealth navies or the US national flag. The Canadians seem to have had no problem changing their national emblem, and the US proudly flies "Old Glory" emblasoned with 50 stars over USS Arizona when the flag of WWII had only 48 stars representing the 48 continental states (which excluded Hawaii and Alaska which had not gained statehood). Why is it that only in Australia do we get so passionate about retaining a design that includes the Union Flag of the UK subjugating a quarter of our national emblem and using a myth to justify it? By the way the idea that we are losing our country to political correctness or to appease peoples from other countries, is something that annoys me every day, but we should support our stance with the truth and not by creating myths. (This is one case where I do have an opinion.) Diana Last edited by Dianaa; 02-02-12 at 22:42. 
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#2
03-02-12, 03:52
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Myth-ing Link
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Sorry to hear that your ties to the UK is a myth. On the serious side, is there an actual movement to change the design of your national flag? Or, is this a personal pique? We in Canada went through that exercise in the mid 1960s, but the driving force to provide a new flag was to obtain a rallying symbol for all Canadians. The choice of the design is a story in itself, but in the end we got a new flag that disarmed separatist sentiments about our former flag, and gave all Canadians a distinctive symbol for which we remain proud of. There was a hell of a fight to retain the former flag, but our political circumstances demanded a solution, and thus our new flag was born. Bruce!
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#3
03-02-12, 11:12
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Did we have ties to the UK? I know that we have Queen Betty I, Queen of Australia who seems to be the same monarch that the Brits call Queen Elizabeth II!  Yes there is a real movement to change the flag, but momentum for change waxes and wanes but the motivation is very similar to that in Canada without the Québécois. Personally I acknowledge our historical ties to Great Britain, and watching the US system, very glad we don't have to elect a President, but feel that Australia should have it's own national symbol, like Canada did in the '60s and what Canadian would wish to return the the former emblem today? This is my point, the flag, whatever its design only represents the nation, it is not the nation in itself and to the point of this thread most Australians who fought and died didn't actually die for the flag but did it for their mates and for the country we love. Diana
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#4
03-02-12, 12:00
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Try This One For Size
Hi all - this was sent to me by a mate and is another example of what pisses me off with our current politicians.
Roll on 2013!!!!!!!!! THIS IS ONE OF A NUMBER OF TIMES WHEN OUR GOVERMENT [PAST & PRESENT ] MAKE ME WISH WE COULD JUST MAKE ALL OF THEM DISAPPEAR & WE COULD START AGAIN WITH PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT AUSTRALIANS & AUSTRALIA Gillard/Brown Government ... sent by a Vietnam Vet ... This is your Australia Today ************************************* Whoever wrote this was really pissed off ... but it's a point well made. On the 18th of August 1966 at Long Tan , Vietnam , D Company of the 6th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, mainly made up of Australian National Servicemen and at that time located to support the American Army, fought a battle against the Viet Cong. In this action D Company lost 18 men killed and 24 injured. The Viet Cong dead numbered in excess of 245. The Australian lines were never crossed. The Viet Cong withdrew. American President Johnson and US Army Staff recognised the achievement by awarding the Unit Citation of Gallantry on 30th May 1968. The Award was formally accepted by Queen Elizabeth in 13th June 1968. Prime Minister John Gorton made the formal presentation of this American Citation to the Battalion at Lavarack Barracks, Townsville on 18th August 1968. On the 31st of March 2010, D Company of the 6th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment were belatedly awarded the Australian version of "Unit Citation for Gallantry" (UCG) honouring their extraordinary deeds at Long Tan. The Government however refused to approve travel payment for the surviving Unit Members or their families, including the families of deceased Unit Members, in order that they be present at the UCG Presentation Ceremony presided over by the Governor General of Australia . In February 2011 the same Government of Australia footed the Funeral Bill to bury the illegal boat people, who tragically perished on Christmas Island . This included flying surviving family illegals and survivors to and from Sydney and Xmas Island , accommodating them, etc etc, plus a Coach tour of Sydney thrown in. The Canberra Politburo had waited 45 years to publicly acknowledge the bravery and sacrifice of these Sons of Australia and then immediately shit on their memory by wetting themselves to appease the feelings of boat illegals forcing entry into our country. Now we witness what can only be described as attempted political face saving, by this same Government, sponsoring a TV Documentary, to celebrate our Armed Forces accomplishments at Kapyong , Korea in 1951. This will see our Prime Minister and the entire Priministerial Entourage fly in a RAAF plane to Korea to mark this 60th Anniversary. What Bloody Hypocrisy!!! What a Blatant Affront to the feelings of our Nation's serving Armed Forces, Past and Present. Shame, Shame, Shame, You Political Parasites. You do not deserve to represent our country.
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Chevrolet Blitz Half-Track Replica - Finished and Running Ford F15 - unrestored Ford F15A X 2 - unrestored Website owner - salesmanbob.com
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#6
03-02-12, 13:00
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Lets change the words
Hi All
Couldn't help but to put in my two cents worth. So lets change the words to the that old prayer. FIRST BOOK OF GOVERNMENT Julia is the shepherd I did not want. She leadeth me beside the still factories. She restoreth my faith in the Liberal party. She guideth me in the path of unemployment for her party's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the bread line, I shall fear no hunger for her bailouts are with me. She has anointed my income with taxes, My expenses runneth over. Surely, poverty and hard living will follow me all the days of my life. And I will live in a rented home forever. I am glad I am Australian. I am glad that I am free. But I wish I was a dog, and Julia was a tree. Cheers Tony 
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Anthony (Tony) VAN RHODA. Strathalbyn. South Australia
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#8
03-02-12, 23:44
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Perceptions
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Very interesting. I served my country for over 20 years and I can state that my mates and I saw our flag as inseparable from our country. Our flag represents more than a geographical location - it represents our way of life, our families, our friends and our ideals. I can't see how you can separate the flag from the country. Then again, I am not a liberal so these fancy notions escape me. Is your point based on something you read, or did you serve or are you serving in the military? On what do you base your hypothesis?
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#9
04-02-12, 23:04
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Food for thought
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Point being there are countless examples of men dying in wars for standards or colours because they do represent so much more. I put it to you that Australians in war have died for the Flag and I also put it to you that they have died for the Union Jack as well. For my part the Australian Flag should never be touched or altered......ever.
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Pax Vobiscum.......may you eat three meals a day & have regular bowel movements.
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#10
04-02-12, 23:55
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Dont touch the flag
Hi Guys I am not one for change just for the sake of change and would not like to see our flag changed from what it is now. I served under this flag for 10 years and it does not matter where you go in the world you will feel a tug at your heart strings when you see our flag flying. Ok it has the Union Jack in the corner which is British but we have the stars of the southern cross below it which is Australian. If you look at the official flag of Hawaii you will see they still have the Union Jack in the top left corner. I was disgusted to see Aboriginals burn and trample our flag the day after Australia Day. I know they have grievances, but we are all Australian so do not dishonour our flag it is an insult to the Aboriginal soldiers who served, fought and died under our flag. LEAVE THE FLAG ALONE AND BE A PROUD AUSTRALIAN.  Cheers Tony
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Anthony (Tony) VAN RHODA. Strathalbyn. South Australia
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#11
05-02-12, 09:07
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The history of the australian flag
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You can tell a lot about a woman from her hands, for example, if there around your neck then she might be a little mad with you!
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#12
05-02-12, 23:49
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Tony's comment about the flag pulling heart strings is true, but after a period away from Australia seeing a red Qantas tail at some far off airport does the same for me even if I may be flying United or KLM at the time. To me the Union Flag represents suppression and subjugation. I think about the Scots at Culloden, the banning of their national cloth and the stealing of their lands and gifting them to English Aristocracy. So we start with the flag of England's St George flying on top of Scotland's flag of St Andrew to form the Queen Anne Flag. The Scottish independance movement is still alive and well. Then the English take the Queen Anne Flag and suppress and subjugate the Irish and similar to happenings in Scotland, the Irish lands are stolen and gifted to English aristocracy. During the "potatoe famine" the English landlords were exporting Irish grown produce for sale in England while the Irish were starving.* The Irish flag of St Patrick is then added underneath the Queen Anne Flag to form the Union Flag, and notice only the cross of St George of England remains untruncated, the other two crosses are reduced in half. The independence movement of Northern Ireland is alive and well. We then come to Australia, each night we can look skyward and see the Southern Cross as represented in our flag against a blue background of our sky, unfortunatly a quarter of our view is obliterated by the Union Flag flying under our unbounded sky. I remember the Irish political prisoners transported to Australia for nothing more that demonstrating for the independance of their homeland, never to see Ireland again. * Back the potatoe famine, our Government would do well to learn the lesson of the Irish as they allow the Chinese to buy up huge swathes of our prime agricultural land in an unregulated manner. Last edited by Dianaa; 06-02-12 at 06:25.
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#13
10-02-12, 15:57
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I remember being at a Wallabies Vs Springboks Rugby match a few years back and seeing the surprised/confused looks of each teams supporters who were decked out in green and gold and the Southern Cross, or gold and green and the Southern Cross.  The depiction, as a celestial formation, is used on around a dozen National, State or Regional official emblems from various countries around the Southern Hemisphere. This is what Wikipedia has to say: "Beginning in the colonial age, the constellation Crux became used as a national symbol by several southern nations. The brightest stars of Crux appear on the flags of Australia, Brazil, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and Samoa. They also appear on the flags of the Australian state of Victoria, the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory, as well as the flag of Magallanes Region of Chile, the flag of Londrina (Brazil) and several Argentine provincial flags and emblems (for example,, Tierra del Fuego and Santa Cruz). The Argentine Air Force acrobatic display team is called Cruz del Sur, the Spanish for "Southern Cross". The Southern Cross was written into the lyrics of "Advance Australia Fair" in 1901: "Beneath our radiant Southern Cross", and also included in the lyrics of the Brazilian National Anthem (1909): "A imagem do Cruzeiro resplandece" ("the image of the Cross shines"). The five stars are also in the logo of the Brazilian football team Cruzeiro Esporte Clube and the Brazilian coat of arms, and even featured as the name of the currency (the cruzeiro from 1942 to 1986 and again from 1990 to 1994. The constellation is displayed in all coins of the current series of the Brazilian real." So our claim to it as solely Australian is utterly ridiculous. I wonder if any nations in the Northern Hemisphere would claim sovereignty as an emblem over say the Pole Star? The closest we would come to our own unique design using the Southern Cross is the Eureka Flag, which also represents the sentiments expressed here by many. But what does really bug me is that you can't find Australian MADE flags anymore, they're all cheap imports from Asia that invariably have errors of some sort. It doesn't matter if you buy a current Official flag, a Boxing Kangaroo or even an Aboriginal Rising Sun, they all seem to be from overseas. Even going to your local Federal Member and asking for an Official Flag (which they are obliged to provide, did you know?), will result in you getting a cheap screen-printed nylon piece of rubbish that even has a tag saying "Made In C****"!
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#14
05-02-12, 13:21
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My hypothesis is not that the National Flag is not a symbol worthy of honour, but IMHO like Canada I feel we deserve a flag which identifies an independant Australia, not something that has the Union Flag (its not a jack unless its on a ship) occupying the most important 25%.
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#15
05-02-12, 20:44
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I'm a forth generation Australian Grazier in my mid 50's and I dont want the flag to change. My ancestors came from England, Scotland, Wales and France.
To me the flag represents where I came from 1/4 and where I live in freedom 3/4.
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Robert Pearce.
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#16
05-02-12, 21:27
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Wow, talk about a post going off on a tangent...
I thought that the intent of this post was to point out your politicians favourism toward immigration (immigrants) and their rights and needs over those of native born sons? Wake Up Australia might as well be called Wake Up Canada. I believe that the UK based Paliamentary system that all of us Colonials live under is seriously broken. We have all the same complaints as you lot, same being said by our brethren in the UK. The UK and their social tolerance policies began in the 1960`s and the country has gone downhill ever since. The problems that they faced in light of being PC are just becoming to be known to us. I would say that Britain would have been a good example of ``lessons learned``, but in spite of the economic and social problems faced internally, Canada and Australia decided to jump on board with the hogwash policy of political correctness. Derek pointed out that people in the US are starting to boil; I believe it to be the same case here in Canada as well. Being typical Canadians, we tend to play our cards close to the vest but, I truly believe that many of my fellow countrymen have deep seated angst for the abuse we suffer from the government as native born sons. Just to show my point, the city of Toronto is approx 3 million persons. According to a recent census report, it was stated that the population is made up of approx 51% immigrants. Now considering that our political system uses representation by population, this equates to the possibility that one day foreigners will be dictating our values....Also, it used to be that within our system, the Liberal party was ususally the go to vote for immigrants. It has got to the point that within these communities, immigrants are fielding political candidates within all 3 major political parties. So alas, voting Liberal is not necessarily a vote in favour of supporting more immigration. By infiltrating the Federal government and stacking the House, it is quite contemptable that one day soon we will be the minority...
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV 1957 Triumph TRW 500cc RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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#17
06-02-12, 01:55
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Tsk! Tsk!
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You raised the issue using soldiers as examples. Don't worry though, soldiers whether serving or retired, are used to folks using us for their own gain. Good luck with your quest.
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#18
06-02-12, 06:40
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There is no gripe and I have nothing to gain and certainly not on the backs of soldiers. As I said in my earlier posts Aussie Soldiers fought under the Union Flag for more than half of the last century, if there was an Australian National Flag present it was always with the Union Flag atop the main flagstaff. Both my Grandfathers fought under the Union Flag, one a RAE sapper on the Somme and one a RAAF pilot officer with the RAF.
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