FGT project

[Ryan]

Hi Tony, following your new threads with pleasure. The old photos are great. How many FGTs were made in the first place? And what's an easy givaway to an FGT chassis when the body is gone?
regards
ryan

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Hi Tony, following your new threads with pleasure. The old photos are great. How many FGTs were made in the first place? And what's an easy givaway to an FGT chassis when the body is gone?
regards
ryan

Hi Ryan, glad to hear you're enjoying the threads. Photo's are courtesy of Keith who has thankfully kept all his old negs.

On the question of FGT numbers built we have it again from the oracle, who tells us that for No.8 pattern tractors: "Approximately 200 of these were built by Holden and Ford in 1942", and for No.9 pattern tractors: "approximately 98 Fords but only two Chevrolet No9 were delivered. About 45 bodies were built but disposed of after the war."

http://www.oldcmp.net/refat8.html
http://www.oldcmp.net/ref9a.html

The 45 bodies were all Chevs I believe, of which all but a handful were scrapped directly from Holden. Euan's is one of the few survivors, having been recovered from Hughes' yard in the late 70's and mated with a C15A chassis for restoration.

It would be fascinating to know the military history of these gun tractors. Quite a few saw action in New Guinea, and later in Korea I believe. Many were retained until the mid 60's, having given 20+ years of service in peacetime.

Sadly very few survived intact once fallen into commercial hands. Unlike sigvans which as 2 seaters made useful delivery vans, gun tractors were valued more for the winch, with most having the body chopped off soon after disposal, to be converted into compact and highly manoeuverable crane trucks. Typically the chop was performed at the B pillar, although a few like Keith's were chopped behind the C pillar. As crane trucks of course, the chassis was often heavily plated, and cropped at the rear for improved clearance, losing the rear fairleads in the process.

The chassis remains quite recognizable however, as these were the only SWB CMPs to be fitted with a winch. First clue of course is the winch itself, or if it's been removed, evidence of its former presence, in the form of winch mountings, and/or fairleads front or rear. Of course, quite a few turn out to be retrofits - evidenced by non-standard winch crossmember and/or side bearing mount plates.

The biggest giveaway on a FGT chassis is the double rear crossmember - a second crossmember, identical to the standard Ford rear crossmember, but facing backwards, was riveted just forward of the rearmost one, and connected to it with riveted plates. The set up can be seen in the attached pic, and being forward of the rear spring hangers, it survives on even the most severely cropped chassis like this one.

Another initial clue is the brake booster linkage - gun tractors were the only SWB variants to be fitted with a brake booster. The retrofit caveat applies of course, but not very likely.

Interestingly, while all cab 13 gun tractors were designed with heavy steering ends and steering box, Australian gun tractors were all fitted with light steering ends and box, due to not receiving the heavier components here until later in the war. Axle assemblies differed from F15A however, in having the lower ratio diff, as supplied for 3 tonner CMPs, for use with 20" wheels.

CGT chassis may be more difficult to identify - I'm not sure what the rear chassis treatment was, and I believe all 4x4 Chevs were fitted with a winch crossmember anyway, as an integral part of the chassis design. Chev experts here may be able to provide more info.

Being of such limited production and low survival rate post-disposal, I'm keen to rescue as many of these uniquely Australian CMP variants as possible. Even the most tragic of chassis remains can be reincarnated in some form, by donating aforementioned parts to a spare F15A chassis, and ideally contributing an ARN serial, to preserve the gun tractor provenance.

Of course, it's a major undertaking to build a repro body, but certainly not beyond our means. They're of simple construction, well within the capabilities of a good steel fabricator, and we have patterns and drawings to work from. I shall be investigating these possibilities further down the track, but I'd be pretty confident that most parts can be reproduced faithfully, provided enough money is thrown at the project! It probably wouldn't be wasted, as gun tractors seem to fetch a decent price when sold. Besides, if it was all about the money, we wouldn't be restoring CMPs!

[Keith Webb]

Actually Euan's came from a different source, via Bruce Wiltshire who restored it. It was not one of the Hughes bodies.

There is another (not from Hughes) which has just arrived at the museum in Adelaide and there are several others such as the remains of one at Copley, another which was used in the making of the Back of Beyond, and even one which wound up at Wayne M's in the 70s.

Then there's the cut up one recovered from Ballarat about 5 years ago which is destined for Dubbo.

And there is yet another in South Australia which has had the lower subframe removed.

So while we don't know the exact number of Chev bodies produced it would seem there were at least 45 CGT9s built late in the war. Only 2 were known to have been completed.

The AWM have a restored No9 FGT in their collection in the annexe as well as a F15A and F60L cab 12 GS.

As far as reproducing the No9 there are engineering drawings for most if not all the parts in existence.

[aj.lec]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Then there's the cut up one recovered from Ballarat about 5 years ago which is destined for Dubbo.
And there is yet another in South Australia which has had the lower subframe removed.
So while we don't know the exact number of Chev bodies produced it would seem there were at least 45 CGT9s built late in the war. Only 2 were known to have been completed.

Is that another in South Australia ?
It is interesting about saying 45 built as the NOS CGT No9 (Ex SA Kim Lochell found) body I have is body 59. Also lower subframe removed. I heard possibly 62 were built cant remember who told me that though.

[Keith Webb]

Thanks for mentioning the later numbers Andrew... if we manage to find some documentary evidence all we have to go on is found numbers.

Originally Posted by aj.lec

Is that another in South Australia ?
It is interesting about saying 45 built as the NOS CGT No9 (Ex SA Kim Lochell found) body I have is body 59. Also lower subframe removed. I heard possibly 62 were built cant remember who told me that though.

[Ryan]

Thanks Tony for your great response. I'll keep my eyes open.


I do know of a dual cab blitz that is a chev. It has post war doors etc, I have no idea if it's originally a cgt though. It's probably just a home made job.

[aj.lec]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Thanks Tony for your great response. I'll keep my eyes open.


I do know of a dual cab blitz that is a chev. It has post war doors etc, I have no idea if it's originally a cgt though. It's probably just a home made job.

Dosent look like one of the post war PMG ones does it Ryan?

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I do know of a dual cab blitz that is a chev. It has post war doors etc, I have no idea if it's originally a cgt though. It's probably just a home made job.

Sounds like a CGT candidate anyway, perhaps a late production with the canvas doors replaced. Alternatively perhaps a PMG dual cab, as seen here:

http://www.oldcmp.net/PMG_1.html

Or perhaps as you say, a homemade job. Although I'm inclined to doubt it - I've seen some weird and wonderful homemade blitz cabs (even two storey ones!) but I don't recall ever seeing a homemade dual cab.

If you can get some pics we can soon identify it.

[Tony Wheeler]

That's interesting about the NOS Chev bodies - for some reason I'd assumed all the survivors were from Hughes.

So I guess there could be more out there somewhere - perhaps sitting in a farmer's shed in pristine condition!

What happened with the CGT chassis from Wodonga, ie. the Peter's crane conversion? It would be great if that could be restored with a NOS body, as one of the only known CGT9's to have been delivered.

[aj.lec]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

That's interesting about the NOS Chev bodies - for some reason I'd assumed all the survivors were from Hughes.

So I guess there could be more out there somewhere - perhaps sitting in a farmer's shed in pristine condition!

.

Going off numbers potentially at least 59
Pristine GT wouldnt that be the ultimate find