Dodge WC question

[Lynn Eades]

Did the Russians get Dodge Weapons Carriers (along with Jeeps, Studebakers etc.)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Did the Russians get Dodge Weapons Carriers (along with Jeeps, Studebakers etc.)

Yes, according to this site http://www.o5m6.de/dodge_wc51.html about 25,000 WC-series in total.

H.

[Eduard Sorokin]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

according to this site http://www.o5m6.de/dodge_wc51.html about 25,000 WC-series in total.

Quantity data are different, as usually in history: I have found the information about 19.621 Dodge WC vehicles, supplied to the USSR.

[gordon]

Having handled numerous 3/4 ton wheels I know just how heavy they are. I wouldn't want them on a tailgate, but I can't see how else you would use that area.

[Lynn Eades]

Gordon, I imagined an arrangement, where the weight is borne primarily by the tow hitch, and folds back from there to get at the boot (trunk)

Eduard, I would suggest this particular Dodge WC51 is earlier production than the 1943 batch that your link describes. Although very smart the pictures in the link, are "artists impression" and show changes from different periods of production. for example none of the trucks with the shock absorber linkages shown, would ever have carried the Dodge badge on the radiator shroud.
I'm no authority, but I think the Dodge in your first post is from the first half of 1942. This would suggest to me a different direction of delivery. What about the possibility of it going with the early Jeeps, MA's,GP's etc. that I have heard so many of, went to Russia.

[gordon]

I assumed that the standard tow hitch and bumperettes were still there, but on a 98" wheelbase chassis that spare is well behind that.

Of course if it was supplied as cab and chassis, the chassis could have been any of the standard lengths. A Maintenance truck chassis would have plenty of length for that setup.

[Lynn Eades]

Gordon,Are you saying that bodywork sits further back than a standard command car? (we are talking about Eduards non winch chassis?)
I thought the USA built stuff went out finished. I seem to remember the U.S. president offered the option the we (the allies) took them as they came or not at all?

[motto]

Eduard, what information do you have on the Dodge based ZIS version of the Command Car? Do you have any more information than you have disclosed?

Jan, I thought that my affliction was mine alone. Now that I find it's not I don't know whether to be pleased or disappointed.

David

[gordon]

I'm not sure there is more rear bodywork length than the standard Command Car Lynn, just not sure.

The standard Command and Weapons chassis was 98" wheelbase, and there was very little rear overhang. This bodywork looks like there is more of it so the spare wheel location is certainly further back than I'd expect to be able to be hung on the standard bumperette position.

As I mentioned though, it doesn't have to be a 98" wheelbase chassis.

[Jan Mostek]

David, be pleased. The same habits, the same hobbies, it means the same people :-)
Best regards, Jan

[Eduard Sorokin]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Eduard, I would suggest this particular Dodge WC51 is earlier production than the 1943 batch that your link describes... I'm no authority, but I think the Dodge in your first post is from the first half of 1942. This would suggest to me a different direction of delivery. What about the possibility of it going with the early Jeeps, MA's,GP's etc. that I have heard so many of, went to Russia.

This fact, that ZiS plant has made this Dodge conversion in 1943, does not mean, that this Dodge itself was produced in 1943 - vehicle could be produced earlier, of course. Supplies of WC to the USSR have begun in 1943, but there could to be vehicles from earlier batches.

Motto: Eduard, what information do you have on the Dodge based ZIS version of the Command Car? Do you have any more information than you have disclosed?

No more details known until today.

And please do not discuss about wheelbase - this is usual, ordinary WC51.

[Lynn Eades]

Eduard, All I was saying, was that this dodge must have been in an earlier delivery, and that it may have made its way in from western Europe.

[Bill Murray]

Hi All:

This is not really my area of expertise, but........

1. The Russians did get the WC Dodges and to the best I can find out, began receiving them in 1943 after the US Army and Marines got the first batches.

2. Jan has given us a date which is invaluable I think. By that time, the Germans were on their way "home" and conceivably would have had little time and resources to waste on making up special umbau-wagens for high ranking officers.

3. We now also have a location, which would indicate the Dodge came from the East, not the West, on it's way to Czechoslovakia so to say. So, the Tatra possibility may fail the test.

4. On the other hand, the Russians had 100s of thousands of German prisoners on hand to use for whatever purpose and not all were riflemen.
Many were artisans and craftsmen who may have done exactly this type of bodywork both before and during the War. The styling is certainly typical of such German conversions.

5. Therefore, if my logic machine is still functioning, I would say both vehicles could well have been converted somewhere in the Russian sphere of influence and possibly to a German design and maybe even by German POWs.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers
Bill

[gordon]

The completely undamaged nature of the front sheet metal and bumper would suggest something like that.

[Jan Mostek]

Well, I guess, Bill could be neat the truth. I have no idea about organisation of russian front units, but thex definitely have enough od POWs in this tine. On the other hand I am not too familiar with russian war machine but ut seems to me they had lack of vehicles like staff cars. Some Land Lease jeeps, small Gazes and that´s it. And in this case, even if he was Czech, but was high rank officer.

[Eduard Sorokin]

How many different assumptions !
I feel sure, all things are much easier.

For example, at that time German POWs were involved in works in building of different buildings, channels, roads, plants and houses only. In many our towns (including my town) and cities are the buildings until today, which were built by Germans.
Highly skilled German experts (for example, rocket designers, etc) were involved by Russians only after War ended.

As to body doors of these Dodges - here are my versions:



And Petrol tank refuelling hole is in same position as on image in my post, and spare wheel on rear. And canvas top is the same.

The vehicle on this image was developed experimentally by ZiS Truck factory in 1943. And it is obviously, Russian designers had some captured German vehicles before their eyes . Even canvas top looks like German style.
Probably, after tests this vehicle (these vehicles) were not adopted by army, and was remained in a reserve. Later this vehicle has been transferred for L. Svoboda use (and not usual open-cab Dodge, because he was not ordinary soldier, but high Commander Officer of friendly Czech Forces).

What are Your opinions ?

[motto]

It appears from the website referred to by Hanno that no Dodge Command Cars were delivered to the Russians among the almost 25,000 Dodges they received.

At the same time there may well have been a perceived requirement for such a vehicle and an alternative produced using available design and resources even if only in small numbers.

This brings us back to Jan's original question/s. Was the body purpose built for the Dodge chassis or was a body from another vehicle grafted on?

If purpose built, where was it done? If from another vehicle, what vehicle was it?

My guess would be purpose built as it doesn't have the appearance of being cobbled together from different vehicles. The skills needed to build and fit out a body would certainly have been available among those captured at Stalingrad and possibly scavenged vehicles for parts or patterns. The German influence is quite clear.

David

[Jan Mostek]

To Motto:
How it is possible that people in the country of cangaroos have the same habbits if they have a rush of energy, like here in the Middle Europe?

[Jan Mostek]

Another question regarding the Dodge.
The rear compartment (trunk?) seems to haveve a kind of a lid. But there is also a spare wheel installed, which is rather heavy to be on openable lid. What is your opinion? Is only the upper part movable? Or the rear lid? Upwards or downwards? or the spare wheel is fastened not to sa lid, but to the frame? What is your opinion? thksrgds Jan.