Historic Vehicle Plates: Pros/Cons in Ontario, Canada

[chris vickery]

Bruce, regular plate, regular insurance.
Historic plates, vintage insurance
Simple as that.
I asked my provider about usage of historic vehicles and according to him, as long as it was being used periodically, even for a country drive, this falls into the "exhibition/display/parade" category of useage.
I have never heard of any case of someone being charged under the HTA for operating a licensed and insured historic vehicle in a safe manner.
Maybe it has happened but one must remember the "spirit" of any law and the intentions behind it when it was written.
Most guys I know who operate antique vehicles belong to some sort of club or organization to promote their old vehicle. While not a lawyer, I think this would cover the "automobile club" stipulation.
When a guy has a whole shop full of restored vehicles it gets awfully expensive to plate and isure all of them using regular plates.
Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

When I read...

(b) is operated on a highway in parades, for purposes of exhibition, tours or similar functions organized by a properly constituted automobile club ........... and when organizations such as the Ontario Military Vehicle Association (OMVA) do not seem to be interested in sponsoring parades or tours, who do we have left in Ontario that can be a properly constituted automobile club?

I think at one time the local chapters of OMVA could help sponsor events, but it seems those days are gone...... This seems a valuable service that could be done for those who have their vehicles registered as "Historic Vehicles"......

Your thoughts?

Stuart

Chris, I see your signature block still indicates you are President of OMVA, so would you comment on my question above....

Stuart

3RD Echelon Wksp

1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC
1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08669
1971 M38A1 CDN3 71-08889
1953 M38A1 CDN 53-33136
1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M101 3/4T CDN trailer
1953 M100 1/4T CDN trailer
1943 Chevy M6 G506
and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and.......

MLU, President-OMVA, MVPA, G503, Willys Forum, Steel Soldiers

[Harry Moon]

In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Harry Moon

In BC we have similar conditions attached to our very low cost Antique Plates.
Western Command has worked out and worked with ICBC(Govt Insurance) regular club events and standard authorizations, gun shows, Museums, annual events etc. We also have a procedure for authorizing one off events even for only one MV. Works good and when my truck was out on loan for one of our convoys I found out the insurance was prompt and fair. The one offs are useful for our more remote members isolated by distance. The club also has public liability insurance through membership in the NACCP, as many events or parades insist on such organizational insurance separate from vehicle insurance.
All that for only $40.00 a year for Western Command and typically less than $100 for antique insurance (public liability only)
Now the club minutes should reflect all this and emails with dates are used to verify this.
As a precautionary note, a past president was killed in his jeep more than 30 years ago and as there was no record, or indeed authorization, therefore there was no insurance. Lesson learned and with proper record keeping we pretty well have something to drive to or at just about anytime.

Harry, very useful information. Based on what you wrote, there would be an advantage if OMVA was able to get your procedures, and implement a similar documented process for those who drive Historic Military Vehicles in Ontario. This would be a significant value added service that would make membership in OMVA useful. The current format of just having two "shows/flea markets" a year seems to be of limited value to those not in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA).

Without getting into specifics, in Ontario, those who have an ATT, require a letter of invitation to those who transport going to a range not on the ATT. This requirement was implemented by the provincial CFA. I can see the importance of having a documented process, with full audit trail that is transparent. I don't think it would require much work, once the process was worked out.

Again, thanks for the details of how you keep folks in compliance in BC. Good stuff...

Cheers!
Stuart

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Also, I have seen trucks over 4500kgs wearing historic plates. Go to any large truck show and check it out.

Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.

[Stuart Fedak]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Oh, I have too. I also had a frustrating talk with MTO on the issue. The guy was adamant that the historic provisions did not exempt a vehicle from being 'commercial' based on weight, so the commercial regs applied even it was historic (and, I hate to admit it, a strict reading of the law based on what it says...and doesn't say...with regard to exemptions tends to support this interpretation). I think the trucks you see out there had the owner apply for plates based on age and simply not mention weight, or if they did the licensing office hadn't conferred with my MTO friend. My concern, like any other when dealing with the law and insurance, is that everything goes fine until there is an accident and then all these issues come up and you get in a heap of trouble.

In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I think "don't ask, don't tell" will get you a plate and insurance but I'd want to be on solid ground if there is a historic exemption for large, 'commercial' ones. If there isn't I wonder how far it goes? Would you need all those amber lights on the corners and top? That would somewhat ruin the authenticity. I also wonder what you would have to do to get trailer plates for a large trailer, say a four wheel 40cwt CMP type. There is no 'historic' trailer plate and your restoration would most likely be treated as a new trailer. Would that mean reflective red/white strips down its khaki side? Lastly, I imagine weight will also determine the class of driver's license you need to operate it. Even with historic plates your 'G' license won't allow you to operate something large enough to require a higher class.

Originally Posted by Stuart Fedak

In the area of jurisprudence, this is what is referred to the act remains silent on Historic Vehicle. The regulations do not specifically include or exclude the requirements of some historic vehicles that would normally be commercial trucks.

There are those who believe that the historic vehicle plate excludes them from the requirements of commercial trucks. There are also those who believe that not withstanding the Historic Vehicle plate, that the requirement under law would be to comply with all requirements for annual safety, daily log of inspection and all other requirements of commercial trucks.

In law, when an act remains silent on certain issues, it is usually assumed that the higher standard would apply in all other areas. This concept means that if your vehicle has historic plates, that notwithstanding the historic vehicle plate, that all standards that would apply to such a vehicle, would be in force. That is usually the standard that would be applied in cases of litigation.

I think the intent of the historic vehicle plates would NOT have been to create a mechanism for unsafe vehicles to drive on the public highways. The general public good would demand that any historic vehicle be as safe as any other vehicle on the highway.

In Ontario every year we have tires and other objects falling off commercial trucks that result in accidents and deaths. I think the requirement to prove documentation of ongoing safety aspects of any commercial/historic vehicle are reasonable.

Your thoughts?

Stuart

[Harry Moon]

Procedures were pretty much in place when I came along in part to that tragedy many years ago. At the meetings annual events and regular trips are mentioned in the minutes and from time to time listed on Facebook, and the newsletter. For individuals who may be spread out sometimes some 100's of miles away the procedure is to email one of the executive with your date and purpose, who is participating and an executive member will reply and I instruct to print it out and keep the email with you.
So when Drew and Tami want to take out their ferret to a cruise in or tour around and they are all the way up in Salmo they are approved. I always add the caution of not to work or to school (unless part of a display or commemoration).
So far no problems and as from time to time we question our good fortune with the ICBC Vintage plates Vs. collector plates (another story) I only recently inquired if we could get a speaker from ICBC to come out to a meeting to answer questions. We have a convoy planned for 2016 to go to the MVPA convention in California. We frown on trailer queens!

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

Just for comparison purposes , i will chime in to give you some info about the Québec situation.

Historic vehicule plates ( more than 25 years since manufacture ) in Québec allow you to drive only on roads that are posted at 70 KM/hr or less . The only exception is when you are headed to a documented bona fide historical vehicule event and back on the day of the event. No other exceptions.

Plus, if your truck's gross weight ( weight of truck plus allowable cargo ) in at more than 4500 Kgs ( Say a CMP Chev C-15 G.S. ) , you have a commercial truck even if it was made 100 years ago..So , you are limited to roads posted at 70 Km/hr or less AND you have to have a yearly inspection, stop at weighing stations , proper driver's licence and have a logbook.

Except for reduced insurance ( ?) and licencing fees ( $104.45 vs $222.58 ) , no real advantage in Québec.

Cheers .

Bob

[Robin Craig]

I knew this one would spin up a bit, nice to see some great posts.

This is a public forum and open to reading by anyone.

There are many people who drive vehicles for which they have lied by omission or just plain lied in some part of the process.

There is no requirement to get an historic plate to get the lower insurance rate offered by the specialist policy folks. My Land Rover 1 Tonne has regular black plates. Insurance is something like $150 a year.

As far as the big trucks go, when I do the ones for my employer that are all registered 100% properly and weighed and safetied every year that they are on the road and that is purely based on their weight, not their usage. That also calls for an emission test. We have two Bedford MJs and an M818 with a Rogers trailer. If it is decided that they will be on the road they get the works.

We also do a lease up and use a CVOR of a commercial company and carry the papers. Its all legit. Daily trip inspections are done as well.

And FYI there is no need for rows of orange lights etc as they are tested on the basis of " fitted at time of manufacture" as befits the vehicles that have come in on the 15 year rule.

At your peril if you don't. Around here Kingston Police are very zealous in their inspection of anything that moves. My co workers and I often get pulled with nothing in a pick up truck, let alone something bigger.

Once we start showing proper papers on the Bedfords they back right off and I have had zero aggravation. The conversation then becomes a show and tell experience.

Do what you will, but don't go telling MTO you have seen this or that, you just cause aggro for the rest of the folks out there.