Canadian Centurion tanks question

[Malcolm Towrie]

Hi, I'm a volunteer "fixer" at the Ontario Regiment Museum in Oshawa, Ontario. We have a project to get one of our Canadian Cent's up and running this year. Not pristine, but running. We just bought a nice Mk 4b engine for it.
I'm a newbie at this so I have been trying to figure out what Mk of Cent we have. It has the armoured fuel tank on the back, a 20 lbr gun, but it it doesn't appear to have the voltage regulator box in the hull for the engine-mounted generator. I have searched on what the various Mks are but it's confusing. Can anybody help me with what we have here?

Malcolm

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Malcolm,

A couple of questions to assist with the ID:

Does it have the additional armour plate welded to the upper glacis plate?
Is the co-ax mounting for a .30 cal Browning MG?
Is there a hatch or a welded plate on the rear of the turret?

Regards

Mike

[Malcolm Towrie]

Mike,
I can see no evidence of a layer of armour welded over the original upper glacis plate.

I have attached photos of the co-ax mount and the rear of the turret. Hopefully, those will answer your other two questions.

Malcolm

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[Ed Storey]

Two questions:

1. Have you asked the Ontario Regiment Museum which Mark of Centurion it is and if so what have they said?

2. Is there any evidence inside of a brass plate with the vehicle's serial number, this will be two numbers-two letters-numbers and what is it?

[Malcolm Towrie]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Two questions:

1. Have you asked the Ontario Regiment Museum which Mark of Centurion it is and if so what have they said?

2. Is there any evidence inside of a brass plate with the vehicle's serial number, this will be two numbers-two letters-numbers and what is it?

I've asked various people here, old hands and people who have worked on the tank before, and none have been completely sure what Mk it is.

I'll have look for the plate.
Malcolm

[David Herbert]

Could it be an ex British one ?

David

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie

I've asked various people here, old hands and people who have worked on the tank before, and none have been completely sure what Mk it is.

Malcolm,

It must have come from somewhere. The museum must have records. However, pending the discovery of a paper trail, the more photos of the tank you post, from all angles, the easier it will be for Mike and the others to identify it. I would think a photo of the top and bottom of the glacis plate would allow Mike to determine if it had been up-armoured.

It's also got a very strange paint job, like it was a monument piece at one point.

Good luck on the project. It would be nice to see one up and running.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Malcolm Towrie]

An old hand told me today the Cent came from St. Hubert Base in Quebec. We got it when the base was closed down. I see from Wikipedia St. Hubert was primarily an air force base, so this surprises me a bit. It was closed down in the mid 90's. I've only been at the museum for a few years but I'll go out on a limb and say that not much if any paperwork exists or changes hands when an old beater gate-guard is given to a museum willing to take it. But I will ask about paperwork, just in case.

A guy who worked on the tank a few years ago showed up today so I picked his brains. He showed me the two large tapped holed in the top of the mantlet where a mount for the spotlight was attached. He confirmed what Mike said about the part of the bustle designed for storing the light.

He also told me he believed the CFR number painted on the tank, 52-S-100S (see photo) is a typo and should be 52-8-1008 (or was it 52-81008?).

He confirmed the upper glacis plate doesn't have the additional welded armour. There are no brass plates inside the tank. He showed me 4 tapped holes in the left hand wall of the driver's compartment where a plate used to be.

He confirmed there were 2 coax machine guns installed but he was surprised to hear this indicated a later Mk as he thought it was a Mk 5/2. His theory on the 20 pdr is that it was installed when the 105 was removed for use elsewhere.

He showed me where a 50 cal was mounted on the commanders cupola.

There is a small control panel in the turret that refers to IR lighting.

He also suggested that the impecunious Canadian army was selective on what upgrades were installed, based on need and cost, so some cherry picking was done. Maybe that explains an unusual mix of upgrades?

I have attached some photos of the front of the turret as Mike requested.

Thank you for your help on this. It's a fascinating exercise.

I'd be happy to take more photos if it would help.

Malcolm

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[Mike Cecil]

Hi Malcolm,

I'm a bit puzzled by your images, as the interior shot appears to show a .50 RG and .30 Co-ax combination MG mount, which would indicate the main armament would be a 105mm, rather than a 20-pdr. Do you have any images of the front of the turret and main armament, please? The turret is also fitted with a rear basket to hold the searchlight normally fitted along with the Infra-Red equipment.

A Centurion:
(1) with 20-pdr, without up-armouring, and fitted with a long range rear fuel tank, and a co-ax of a .30 cal, would be Mk.5 LR.
(2) with 105mm, and as above, would be a Mk.5/2 LR
(3) with 105mm, , fitted with 50 RG, , IR sights and searchlight and as above, would be a Mk11 LR

I'm not aware that Canada ever fitted the .50 RG to tanks equipped with the 20-pdr main armament - as far as I know, Australia was the only Centurion operator with that particular combination.

Regards

Mike