Centurion Arrives in BC

[Ed Storey]

So we have a Centurion with no identifiable WD number and a questionable CFR, how would anyone come to conclusion that this particular AFV which sat outside at Cornwallis for several decades actually served in Korea?

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

So we have a Centurion with no identifiable WD number and a questionable CFR, how would anyone come to conclusion that this particular AFV which sat outside at Cornwallis for several decades actually served in Korea?

Still waiting for the 'anyone' to get back to me from Borden. Because otherwise I'm at sea myself on that one.

[Aide Memoire]

Is anyone near another gate guardian Canadian Cent or have any Hull number pics of any with known CFRs? I noticed something on the the topic tank and wondered if that's why whomever thought this would be the CFR number - as the CFR and Hull number both end in '190'. If there's another tank out there with a known CFR - I'd be interested to see if the last three of the Hull number also relate to that tank's CFR. Highly doubt for reasons everyone's already mentioned, but worth a try.

[Dan Martel]

Assuming that everyone reading this thread is as big a Centurion geek as I, I won't hold back from posting Centurion trivia as I find it.

Attached is a monograph written by Shane Lovell of Canberra on Centurion tank turrets. It covers the first four types which were fitted to the production Mk 3 and Mk 5 tanks. It can be found online here. The pdf is for those of you who wish to have your own copy.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Aide Memoire]

Two images from Harold Skaarup's great reference site came up while I was looking for likely places on this tank to sand in the hopes of finding a CFR. They're from RCDs in Germany in 1964. We kept the British WD/ VRN numbers on them in our service rather than using the 52-XXXXX type? First pic shows

"CDN 03 BA 47"

Second pic shows a trace of the British VRN on the very front of the hull (may well be the same tank as in the previous pic) but all you can really make out is the 'BA' part.

Were these just temp assign/ loaners from the Brits? According to my VRN list they'd be 1949/1950 tanks in the same series as a bunch that went to Australia.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect. These are only two photographs of a vehicle type used by Canada for nearly three decades on two continents so in order to truly understand the topic of Centurions you must be able to effectively analyse an image in order to draw the correct conclusions.

The stages involved that must be followed in order to correctly answer the question about Canadian Centurions, their use and how they were recorded by DND are as follows:

Collection
Analysis
Synthesis
Reporting

Right now I see it that you are still 'Collecting' hoping that through luck you will find the answer you are seeking, an answer that may take hundreds of hours of research (books, archives, libraries) and may never be answered. By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

The questions you should have asked yourself when you found these images on a website and before posting them are numerous and should have started with; what was the provenance of the photographs and what information on these photographs was available from the source. Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

[Ed Storey]

I have just taken out the recycle and had a rethink about this thread. This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

I don't think you intend to write a history of the Centurion tank in CF service but you are trying to determine if the tank in question, and now in Aldergrove, actually served in Korea. Adding to the mystery is that the tank does not have a known British MoD WD number and the attributed CFR is questionable.

You may never be able to find the correct CFR or WD number for the vehicle now in Aldergrove, but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You may be able to find out how many tanks were used in Korea and what they had for assigned WD numbers. You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks. This would I think at least prove or disprove the theory of some Canadian Centurions tanks having seen previous use in Korea.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect.

You're assuming I made an assumption.

Photos have MIKAN numbers. Descriptions and dates are Harold Skaarup's. While the Internet is indeed the Wild, Wild West...I think Harold's pages live in the tamer part. I've seen incorrect photo descriptions originating from Library and Archives Canada before, however, so that may well be the case.

By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

Misery-shared, as they say. I imagine others here have tried to identify their own museum's acquisitions and history of same so it seemed a good place to start rather than re-tread well-trodden ground. So far it's been very helpful as there are many knowledgeable people about.

Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

Fortunately as mentioned before, there are a great many knowledgeable people about capable of answering those questions and lending perspective. It's what we do as a museum/ collector community, isn't it?

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

Thusfar I've not been able to prize it from the clutches of innumerable fingers faster than my own, but if left unattended for any period of time I'll certainly make a play for it.

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

Well, the WD number (and indeed that specific tank) were just tangential to having a go at sanding a likely area where a WD or CFR would have been painted, again in the pursuit of trying to identify the Cornwallis tank. Because the marking and use of the British number seemed anomalous to usual practice...I believed it to be of group interest.