Centurion Arrives in BC

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

... but the reason I asked for them is that *after* Canada had taken delivery of its brand-new orders we got at least a couple of used ones out of British Army inventory in 1963. Unfortunately it doesn't really specify where they went other than "Can Bde" - but interesting I've never heard mention of it until now.

Andy,

Thanks for doing this. At first glance I can't make hide nor hair of them but I look forward to reading them until I do!

What I can add is that the Canadian Army acquired four bridgelayer Centurions during the mid-60's. Details vary as to the exact dates they were received, and it appears they were taken on at four different times but served until replaced by the Leopard bridgelayer.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

For what it is worth, my records show 3 Centurion Mk 5 Bridgelayers in 1966 and another 2 in 1967.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

(ps. the "s/o" is British admspeak for "struck off" or "sold on" - and apparently "FARELF" is Far East Land Force - or gear pooled for the Malaysian Emergency, apparently surplused from Hong Kong.)

Again for what it is worth my list does not show any Canadian Centurion tank acquisitions after 1954. Canada did use a small number of 1951 vintage Centurions when 27 Brigade was first formed and for which I do not have their WD Nos. Looking at the WD list provided in an earlier post and comparing it to the Centurion card just posted which documents Centurion Mk 5 02ZR59; according to the WD list the ZR series was applied to late 1940s early 1950s vehicles. Is it not possible then that the list is not saying Canada took on 02ZR59 in 1963 but that it was stricken off the brigade strength and sent to the Far east in 1963 as we were then using 'newer' 1953 and 1954 model Centurions in Germany? I am also thinking that this transfer might make sense as in 1963 Canada was still part of the BOAR in Northern Germany.

[Mike Cecil]

Andy,

Interesting list and quite useful, thanks for posting it. Someone put in a lot of work to compile it.

One aspect to note regarding the Australian vehicles listed: the first 60 (169000 to 169059) were not built as Mk.5, but Mk.3, and such items as the dozer equipped and driver training vehicles were originally built as MBTs.

The cards also throw up the ZR series, which I didn't see on that list. These were the tanks that had originally been allocated T numbers but were swung over to the new system when it came into existence circa 1950.

I didn't see the MS series on there, either, which I understand were vehicles for foreign sales in the late 50s and early 60s. The Australian bridgelayers were in that series.

Perhaps the Brits on the forum could provide more comment?

Regards

Mike

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Thank you for posting those two cards although I often wonder if posts get read and understood completely. The quote is from Post 14. Apparently I was not clear enough and you just found out that you require the WD number to trace British vehicles.....

Thanks, Ed, but no - no reading comprehension issues here. I was hoping against hope that Bovington may have had some maint. or production record or other which might match Hull No. to VRN in the case of the Cents even if that was a bit like believing in Santa Claus. I've tried to track Ferrets and Saladins in the past with nothing but hull nos. to go on but as you say...it doesn't work like that.

[Dan Martel]

From another forum I've learned that Centurions were produced (not including early test vehicles and Mk 2's) from 1948 (Mk 3) to 1960 (Mk 10). The overwhelming majority of production vehicles were Mk 3's with 2833 built from 1948 to 1956.

As I recall reading elsewhere there were five different turret styles as well during the production run, and just to make it more confusing the turret styles did not necessarily co-relate to the hull style.

The last WD number assigned to a new build Mk 10 was 03DA03 on March 30, 1962.

Cheers,
Dan.

[David Herbert]

Remember that the army registration number stayed with the hull regardless of how many times it was rebuilt. So it is possible to find photos of very different vehicles with the same registration because it is the same hull rebuilt several times.
David

[Robin Craig]

Thank you for this, its helps another current project I am involved with. Again with similar transfer issues

[Ed Storey]

So we have a Centurion with no identifiable WD number and a questionable CFR, how would anyone come to conclusion that this particular AFV which sat outside at Cornwallis for several decades actually served in Korea?

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

So we have a Centurion with no identifiable WD number and a questionable CFR, how would anyone come to conclusion that this particular AFV which sat outside at Cornwallis for several decades actually served in Korea?

Still waiting for the 'anyone' to get back to me from Borden. Because otherwise I'm at sea myself on that one.

[Aide Memoire]

Is anyone near another gate guardian Canadian Cent or have any Hull number pics of any with known CFRs? I noticed something on the the topic tank and wondered if that's why whomever thought this would be the CFR number - as the CFR and Hull number both end in '190'. If there's another tank out there with a known CFR - I'd be interested to see if the last three of the Hull number also relate to that tank's CFR. Highly doubt for reasons everyone's already mentioned, but worth a try.

[Dan Martel]

Assuming that everyone reading this thread is as big a Centurion geek as I, I won't hold back from posting Centurion trivia as I find it.

Attached is a monograph written by Shane Lovell of Canberra on Centurion tank turrets. It covers the first four types which were fitted to the production Mk 3 and Mk 5 tanks. It can be found online here. The pdf is for those of you who wish to have your own copy.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Aide Memoire]

Two images from Harold Skaarup's great reference site came up while I was looking for likely places on this tank to sand in the hopes of finding a CFR. They're from RCDs in Germany in 1964. We kept the British WD/ VRN numbers on them in our service rather than using the 52-XXXXX type? First pic shows

"CDN 03 BA 47"

Second pic shows a trace of the British VRN on the very front of the hull (may well be the same tank as in the previous pic) but all you can really make out is the 'BA' part.

Were these just temp assign/ loaners from the Brits? According to my VRN list they'd be 1949/1950 tanks in the same series as a bunch that went to Australia.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect. These are only two photographs of a vehicle type used by Canada for nearly three decades on two continents so in order to truly understand the topic of Centurions you must be able to effectively analyse an image in order to draw the correct conclusions.

The stages involved that must be followed in order to correctly answer the question about Canadian Centurions, their use and how they were recorded by DND are as follows:

Collection
Analysis
Synthesis
Reporting

Right now I see it that you are still 'Collecting' hoping that through luck you will find the answer you are seeking, an answer that may take hundreds of hours of research (books, archives, libraries) and may never be answered. By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

The questions you should have asked yourself when you found these images on a website and before posting them are numerous and should have started with; what was the provenance of the photographs and what information on these photographs was available from the source. Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

[Ed Storey]

I have just taken out the recycle and had a rethink about this thread. This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

I don't think you intend to write a history of the Centurion tank in CF service but you are trying to determine if the tank in question, and now in Aldergrove, actually served in Korea. Adding to the mystery is that the tank does not have a known British MoD WD number and the attributed CFR is questionable.

You may never be able to find the correct CFR or WD number for the vehicle now in Aldergrove, but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You may be able to find out how many tanks were used in Korea and what they had for assigned WD numbers. You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks. This would I think at least prove or disprove the theory of some Canadian Centurions tanks having seen previous use in Korea.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC.

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect.

You're assuming I made an assumption.

Photos have MIKAN numbers. Descriptions and dates are Harold Skaarup's. While the Internet is indeed the Wild, Wild West...I think Harold's pages live in the tamer part. I've seen incorrect photo descriptions originating from Library and Archives Canada before, however, so that may well be the case.

By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

Misery-shared, as they say. I imagine others here have tried to identify their own museum's acquisitions and history of same so it seemed a good place to start rather than re-tread well-trodden ground. So far it's been very helpful as there are many knowledgeable people about.

Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

Fortunately as mentioned before, there are a great many knowledgeable people about capable of answering those questions and lending perspective. It's what we do as a museum/ collector community, isn't it?

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

Thusfar I've not been able to prize it from the clutches of innumerable fingers faster than my own, but if left unattended for any period of time I'll certainly make a play for it.

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

Well, the WD number (and indeed that specific tank) were just tangential to having a go at sanding a likely area where a WD or CFR would have been painted, again in the pursuit of trying to identify the Cornwallis tank. Because the marking and use of the British number seemed anomalous to usual practice...I believed it to be of group interest.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

What I can add is that the Canadian Army acquired four bridgelayer Centurions during the mid-60's.

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

For what it is worth, my records show 3 Centurion Mk 5 Bridgelayers in 1966 and another 2 in 1967.

My copy of Dingwall shows CAR's for four Centurion AVLB's:

66-10179
66-10183
66-10187
67-10173

His book also quotes 4 bridgelayers in the inventory by 1971. Which one have he and I missed?

Cheers,
Dan.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

And quite rightly. While I love a good mystery, I prefer mine in paperback.

but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks.

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by rob love

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

[Dennis Cardy]

Paid a quick visit to the Aldergrove Legion today, Thurs. 28 Nov, 2019.
They are very happy about the Centurion project.

I was shown the spot where it will be placed. High visibility, right next to busy main road through the middle of Aldergrove.
Next to the Cenotaph, where the sign, flag pole, and the concrete pavers are.

In a collaborative move, the Legion and Maj.(CF) Newby, are seeking Govt. and other funding sources, to construct the pad,
as the pavers might be a tad under strength. A nearby CF Base has been contacted for engineering specs.
Too bad Rob Love wasn't here. His extensive knowledge of monument installation would be useful.

A lot going on behind the scenes to make it all happen.

We did not discuss its provenance.

Cheers.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

As I stated before, are you sure that the tanks were not being sent from Germany to Hong Kong as you don't even know any the details of the tanks held by the Canadian Brigade in Germany. Do you even know how many tanks 1 RTR had in Korea and what their specific Mod WD numbers are? Do you know how many tanks were being held in Hong Kong?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

So how many tanks do you have the data on or are you only working from one tank? Again, what details do you know about the Canadina tanks used in Germany?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

What target year range did you check on? Yes, Bovington's cards do meet the litmus-test for original sources and they appear to be the only primary sources you have looked at. Why the reluctance to check a known Canadian Centurion MoD WD number with Bovington to see what they have? Again, I think you are making assumptions on the transfers. Also, what do you know about 1 RTR Centurions?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

I eagerly await to hear about what you find.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

More assumptions. How do you know the photographs were taken from Kodak Instamatics if you have not seem them? I used a Canon FTB 35mm SLR in the 1970s and my photographs are crystal clear.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

You're assuming I made an assumption.

Photos have MIKAN numbers. Descriptions and dates are Harold Skaarup's. While the Internet is indeed the Wild, Wild West...I think Harold's pages live in the tamer part. I've seen incorrect photo descriptions originating from Library and Archives Canada before, however, so that may well be the case.

So, did you follow up on the MIKAN numbers?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Misery-shared, as they say. I imagine others here have tried to identify their own museum's acquisitions and history of same so it seemed a good place to start rather than re-tread well-trodden ground. So far it's been very helpful as there are many knowledgeable people about.

Fortunately as mentioned before, there are a great many knowledgeable people about capable of answering those questions and lending perspective. It's what we do as a museum/ collector community, isn't it?

The term 'museum' used to imply a centre of knowledge, apparently that is not the case any more.

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

I've not been able to prize it from the clutches of innumerable fingers faster than my own, but if left unattended for any period of time I'll certainly make a play for it.

So why am I even having this discussion when you have to yet 'make a play for it'! I'm out! I've wasted enough time - sure the tank is a Korean War veteran or whatever you and your 'museum' wants to believe. When you cannot even be bothered to sit down read a a basic reference publication, then go back to 'researching' on the internet.

[Dennis Cardy]

Ed Storey.
Moving on from needless irritation...the Mk5 at Borden, is an interesting comparison to the Aldergrove one. My interest is seeing the Aldergrove project succeed.

Those who have been around the Forces understand a great deal of Horse-Trading goes on at unit level....you know...the guys who are doing the actual fighting.
Quite possible...make that probable....that a Brit or Aussie piece of equipment ended up on "Temporary Loan" to a Canadian unit.
Unlikely that would appear on official records.
Just my opinion, of course.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

To that end, look for some of the Canadian modifications. A vehicle as large and cumbersome as a Cent will have been Canadianized to some degree.



An related example is the Canadian ferrets. There were a number of modifications, including the welding of different blocks on the hull so the 5 pound Ansul extinguisher brackets could be installed. Another was the installation of different passage points for the rear tail light wiring. There are a half dozen more official and unofficial modifications that differentiate the Canadian Ferret from the UK ferrets. I have no doubt there must be similar changes for the centurions, and if you find the Canadian modifications on them, then that may lend to it's Cdn lineage.

[jdmcm]

Hey Dennis and Andy

so awesome that the tank is going to be on display for everyone to see! Perhaps some kind of fundraiser is in order to help pay for the required display? I have no idea what that would cost but there must be a fellow victim of green fever in the area who specializes in concrete? Is the tank exterior complete? looks pretty good from what I have seen, I do have a few external bits I could donate if required to make sure she is turned out complete.

Anyway, I know there is a some question of its provenance, but honestly it is a Centurion, the first one we will have here in BC on display that I know of, which is fantastic! Keep up the good work.

Regards
John

[Aide Memoire]

The bins have the bottoms rotted out of them for the most part, and the sheet metal above the tracks needs to be replaced entirely, but it's all flat stock. Everything else is excellent right down to the road wheels.

Found something interesting. Anthony Sewards posted a pic of the data plate of the Cent he's involved with which has the Serial No. and British VRN number side-by-side but not the CFR (I've asked if he knows it.)

Serial No. of that Cent: 134-190 'March 1952'
Serial No. of our Cent: 142-190

To me, as logical guesswork, that looks like it was a run of 190 tanks for that particular block, and the two tanks are 8 serial numbers apart. Anthony's tank has the British VRN 07 BA 11, which is part of a contiguous block of VRNs not assigned in my list which has nothing from 06 BA 38 right through 07 BA 25 connected to anything English or Australian. Making an *enormous* leap-of-faith, that might make ours 07 BA 19, but as Ed said - things wind up out of sequence all the time for whatever reason.

Either way it would seem to make it made in the same batch around March 1952 as Anthony's one - which would include it among the ones built new for Canada and not any Korean retread.

One other interesting thing...I didn't track back the MIKAN numbers, but back to that one pic from Harold's site:

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4234066.jpg

Ed seems quite correct in that the 1964 date is most certainly wrong. I think it's RCDs right after they took delivery of the first Centurions as per this:

"The first 21 Centurions were delivered to the Royal Canadian Dragoons in Germany in March 1952, where they served with the Canadian contingent of the NATO forces based there."

Which would explain both the earlier sequence number "CDN 03 BA 47" and the lack of a (well...visible at least) CFR.

I have some more turret pics to post in a separate post.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

Hey Dennis and Andy

so awesome that the tank is going to be on display for everyone to see! Perhaps some kind of fundraiser is in order to help pay for the required display? (...) I do have a few external bits I could donate if required to make sure she is turned out complete.

Cheers. That's very generous of you. Everything certainly helps!

Not entirely sure what the timeline is. I know there was considerable site-prep dialogue and pressure to speed things along directly after R-day...but to me that's kind of at odds with having to do extensive sheet metal work and painting...outside...in the dead of Winter. Unless between the Legion, City and...higher headquarters here...someone's come up with a plan to contract both out that I'm unaware of. I'm more than happy to wait until the weather gets to the point I don't have to thin paint 300:1 to get it through the gun.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Ed Storey.

Quite possible...make that probable....that a Brit or Aussie piece of equipment ended up on "Temporary Loan" to a Canadian unit.
Unlikely that would appear on official records.
Just my opinion, of course.

Love to know what the hull number/ serial number on this one is. Great info. Cheers.