Centurion Arrives in BC

[Aide Memoire]

Two images from Harold Skaarup's great reference site came up while I was looking for likely places on this tank to sand in the hopes of finding a CFR. They're from RCDs in Germany in 1964. We kept the British WD/ VRN numbers on them in our service rather than using the 52-XXXXX type? First pic shows

"CDN 03 BA 47"

Second pic shows a trace of the British VRN on the very front of the hull (may well be the same tank as in the previous pic) but all you can really make out is the 'BA' part.

Were these just temp assign/ loaners from the Brits? According to my VRN list they'd be 1949/1950 tanks in the same series as a bunch that went to Australia.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect. These are only two photographs of a vehicle type used by Canada for nearly three decades on two continents so in order to truly understand the topic of Centurions you must be able to effectively analyse an image in order to draw the correct conclusions.

The stages involved that must be followed in order to correctly answer the question about Canadian Centurions, their use and how they were recorded by DND are as follows:

Collection
Analysis
Synthesis
Reporting

Right now I see it that you are still 'Collecting' hoping that through luck you will find the answer you are seeking, an answer that may take hundreds of hours of research (books, archives, libraries) and may never be answered. By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

The questions you should have asked yourself when you found these images on a website and before posting them are numerous and should have started with; what was the provenance of the photographs and what information on these photographs was available from the source. Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

[Ed Storey]

I have just taken out the recycle and had a rethink about this thread. This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

I don't think you intend to write a history of the Centurion tank in CF service but you are trying to determine if the tank in question, and now in Aldergrove, actually served in Korea. Adding to the mystery is that the tank does not have a known British MoD WD number and the attributed CFR is questionable.

You may never be able to find the correct CFR or WD number for the vehicle now in Aldergrove, but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You may be able to find out how many tanks were used in Korea and what they had for assigned WD numbers. You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks. This would I think at least prove or disprove the theory of some Canadian Centurions tanks having seen previous use in Korea.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC.

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by rob love

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

[Dennis Cardy]

Paid a quick visit to the Aldergrove Legion today, Thurs. 28 Nov, 2019.
They are very happy about the Centurion project.

I was shown the spot where it will be placed. High visibility, right next to busy main road through the middle of Aldergrove.
Next to the Cenotaph, where the sign, flag pole, and the concrete pavers are.

In a collaborative move, the Legion and Maj.(CF) Newby, are seeking Govt. and other funding sources, to construct the pad,
as the pavers might be a tad under strength. A nearby CF Base has been contacted for engineering specs.
Too bad Rob Love wasn't here. His extensive knowledge of monument installation would be useful.

A lot going on behind the scenes to make it all happen.

We did not discuss its provenance.

Cheers.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Paid a quick visit to the Aldergrove Legion today, Thurs. 28 Nov, 2019.
They are very happy about the Centurion project.

I was shown the spot where it will be placed. High visibility, right next to busy main road through the middle of Aldergrove. Next to the Cenotaph, where the sign, flag pole, and the concrete pavers are.

Unfortunately that did not progress because of a bunch of reasons that are all spelled "liability". Seems to be happening with a lot of existing monuments too as entities start fearing they'll be sued if some visitor rediscovers the law of gravity while climbing on it. As a result the whole cosmetic rehab project stalled at the same time and is still struggling to get back nearer the top of the Job Jar.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

More assumptions. How do you know the photographs were taken from Kodak Instamatics if you have not seem them? I used a Canon FTB 35mm SLR in the 1970s and my photographs are crystal clear.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Yeah...another very real possibility. Supposedly there exists a number of photos of the (somewhat unauthorized ) range recovery, rail shipment to Seaforths, and pics in the then-compound there, but while everyone's talked about them - I've yet to see any. If there are any markings or unique paintwork in those pics - that might help - but unfortunately that was also the Kodak Instamatic generation and everything from those things is always out of focus. And orange.

To that end, look for some of the Canadian modifications. A vehicle as large and cumbersome as a Cent will have been Canadianized to some degree.



An related example is the Canadian ferrets. There were a number of modifications, including the welding of different blocks on the hull so the 5 pound Ansul extinguisher brackets could be installed. Another was the installation of different passage points for the rear tail light wiring. There are a half dozen more official and unofficial modifications that differentiate the Canadian Ferret from the UK ferrets. I have no doubt there must be similar changes for the centurions, and if you find the Canadian modifications on them, then that may lend to it's Cdn lineage.

[jdmcm]

Hey Dennis and Andy

so awesome that the tank is going to be on display for everyone to see! Perhaps some kind of fundraiser is in order to help pay for the required display? I have no idea what that would cost but there must be a fellow victim of green fever in the area who specializes in concrete? Is the tank exterior complete? looks pretty good from what I have seen, I do have a few external bits I could donate if required to make sure she is turned out complete.

Anyway, I know there is a some question of its provenance, but honestly it is a Centurion, the first one we will have here in BC on display that I know of, which is fantastic! Keep up the good work.

Regards
John

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by rob love

Or could it have been a British used Centurion rescued from being a target in Wainwright or Suffield. Did the British operate in those two locations in the 70s (certainly they did in Suffield)? We certainly did see British supplied armour on the ranges throughout the 80s and onwards. And we have seen some of that make it's way out as monuments, often set up to represent Canadian service.

Something just came up on the 'Canadian Military Vehicles' Facebook group which made this worth revisiting. The Centurion that was owned by Crown Surplus made its way into the Jacques Littlefield collection, got auctioned a few years ago, and is now on its way to the Pima Air and Space Collection where they're apparently starting a ground combat vehicle grouping.

Paraphrasing Ken Raychert, the Crown Surplus Centurion was apparently an ex-Fort Garry Horse tank which wound up in a group of 16 ex-CDN Centurions at Levy Auto Parts, which were then sold to the Brits to use as hard targets at Suffield. The Crown Surplus tank, supposedly 53-81228, was the only one sold privately by Levy - with the rest off to the ranges.

If that's all true - Canadian tanks were on the ranges at Suffield - where the one we have here in Aldergrove is supposed to have come from - so it might be one of the 16 that Levy had.

** I say 'supposedly 53-81228' because that CAR is duplicated on a Centurion displayed at CFB Kingston for some reason.

[Wayne Hingley]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

** I say 'supposedly 53-81228' because that CAR is duplicated on a Centurion displayed at CFB Kingston for some reason.

Did these tanks get a stamped CAR somewhere, like most other SMP vehicles from the early 50s?

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

This thread is about a Canadian Centurion which was shipped from Cornwallis NS to Aldergrove BC. The tank has been attributed to having seen service in Korea, a statement which has been challenged.

And quite rightly. While I love a good mystery, I prefer mine in paperback.

but you may be able to prove that some Canadian used Centurions had actually seen service in Korea prior to being shipped to Canada. So why not take another approach and first determine which British Regiments employed Centurions in Korea and work from there? You can then take this list of WD numbers and check with Bovington to see if any of the tanks made their way into Canadian stocks.

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

Some things you can do which may help you is catalogue what the casting number is on the turret and let us know which model of turret it is. You can also record the gun number and any other hull serial numbers as this information may help you later on.

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

I've done a bit of that already, including finding for example that 1RTRs Centurions after Korea went to a couple of other deployments and wound up in...FARELF stocks in Hong Kong. That's already very interesting given those cards from Bovington showing three Centurion transfers to "Can Bde" apparently from those stocks, and not as loaners either because they were 'struck off census' meaning no further British Army record-keeping would be done.

As I stated before, are you sure that the tanks were not being sent from Germany to Hong Kong as you don't even know any the details of the tanks held by the Canadian Brigade in Germany. Do you even know how many tanks 1 RTR had in Korea and what their specific Mod WD numbers are? Do you know how many tanks were being held in Hong Kong?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Those are the only three transfers Bovington could find, but they also point (as mentioned in a previous post) that their records for the Centurion years in question are unfortunately quite spotty. In this case the transfers are just academic anyway, as the VRN range (and Bovington's own comments) make them older tanks 1948-1950...where the earliest hull stamp I can find on the Cornwallis tank is 1951, and the latest 1952.

So how many tanks do you have the data on or are you only working from one tank? Again, what details do you know about the Canadina tanks used in Germany?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

If anything, Bovington's info coupled with their spotty records for tanks in the target year range (and I suppose Harold Skaarup's photos) invite more questions than they answer. Did transfers take place outside of the contracts for new ones and some of the specialty versions acquired later? Seems so. I think Bovington's cards meet the litmus-test for 'original sources' so the precedent's at least there. Were any of those transfers of tanks that actually served with the British in Korea? Harder question...but the paper trail is there at least as far as 1RTR is concerned for the chances to be better than even.

What target year range did you check on? Yes, Bovington's cards do meet the litmus-test for original sources and they appear to be the only primary sources you have looked at. Why the reluctance to check a known Canadian Centurion MoD WD number with Bovington to see what they have? Again, I think you are making assumptions on the transfers. Also, what do you know about 1 RTR Centurions?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Indeed. In the midst of all that now during our...4 hrs...of winter daylight. Cheers.

I eagerly await to hear about what you find.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Thank you for posting these photographs into this discussion. I must advise you to be very cautious when doing your research from the internet as for example your date assumption in which the photographs were taken is incorrect.

You're assuming I made an assumption.

Photos have MIKAN numbers. Descriptions and dates are Harold Skaarup's. While the Internet is indeed the Wild, Wild West...I think Harold's pages live in the tamer part. I've seen incorrect photo descriptions originating from Library and Archives Canada before, however, so that may well be the case.

By posting the images you can draw on the collective knowledge of this forum to answer your questions, but at the end of the day you won't learn anything as in effect everyone else will be doing the work for you. And ultimately, the conclusions provided by the forum may not be correct.

Misery-shared, as they say. I imagine others here have tried to identify their own museum's acquisitions and history of same so it seemed a good place to start rather than re-tread well-trodden ground. So far it's been very helpful as there are many knowledgeable people about.

Secondly you should have asked yourself what Mark of tank are they and at what time frame was that Mark used by the Canadian Army? To your credit you did check on the WD number but without a clear understanding of Canadian vehicle markings (another in-depth area of study in itself) you will not be able to correctly analyse what you are looking at in the photographs with respect to time-line.

Fortunately as mentioned before, there are a great many knowledgeable people about capable of answering those questions and lending perspective. It's what we do as a museum/ collector community, isn't it?

I have to ask, do you at least own a copy of the Service Publications book by Don Dingwall on the Centurion Tank?

Thusfar I've not been able to prize it from the clutches of innumerable fingers faster than my own, but if left unattended for any period of time I'll certainly make a play for it.

You have stumbled upon an attributed WD number to a Canadian Centurion so I must now also ask, other than seeking answers from this forum, what should be your next move?

Well, the WD number (and indeed that specific tank) were just tangential to having a go at sanding a likely area where a WD or CFR would have been painted, again in the pursuit of trying to identify the Cornwallis tank. Because the marking and use of the British number seemed anomalous to usual practice...I believed it to be of group interest.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

You're assuming I made an assumption.

Photos have MIKAN numbers. Descriptions and dates are Harold Skaarup's. While the Internet is indeed the Wild, Wild West...I think Harold's pages live in the tamer part. I've seen incorrect photo descriptions originating from Library and Archives Canada before, however, so that may well be the case.

So, did you follow up on the MIKAN numbers?

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

Misery-shared, as they say. I imagine others here have tried to identify their own museum's acquisitions and history of same so it seemed a good place to start rather than re-tread well-trodden ground. So far it's been very helpful as there are many knowledgeable people about.

Fortunately as mentioned before, there are a great many knowledgeable people about capable of answering those questions and lending perspective. It's what we do as a museum/ collector community, isn't it?

The term 'museum' used to imply a centre of knowledge, apparently that is not the case any more.

Originally Posted by Aide Memoire

I've not been able to prize it from the clutches of innumerable fingers faster than my own, but if left unattended for any period of time I'll certainly make a play for it.

So why am I even having this discussion when you have to yet 'make a play for it'! I'm out! I've wasted enough time - sure the tank is a Korean War veteran or whatever you and your 'museum' wants to believe. When you cannot even be bothered to sit down read a a basic reference publication, then go back to 'researching' on the internet.

[Dennis Cardy]

Ed Storey.
Moving on from needless irritation...the Mk5 at Borden, is an interesting comparison to the Aldergrove one. My interest is seeing the Aldergrove project succeed.

Those who have been around the Forces understand a great deal of Horse-Trading goes on at unit level....you know...the guys who are doing the actual fighting.
Quite possible...make that probable....that a Brit or Aussie piece of equipment ended up on "Temporary Loan" to a Canadian unit.
Unlikely that would appear on official records.
Just my opinion, of course.

[Aide Memoire]

Originally Posted by Dennis Cardy

Ed Storey.

Quite possible...make that probable....that a Brit or Aussie piece of equipment ended up on "Temporary Loan" to a Canadian unit.
Unlikely that would appear on official records.
Just my opinion, of course.

Love to know what the hull number/ serial number on this one is. Great info. Cheers.

[jdmcm]

Andy, I am in the midst of rebuilding all my external bins as they are also in bad shape, with much of the bottoms rotted out, so I would be more than happy to assist rebuilding yours as well if that is any help

Regards
John