Kangaroo Photos wanted

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello Paul,

Glad you like the pictures.

Originally Posted by tankmodeler

Wow! Great photos and showing very interesting details on each. The colour still shows a Kangaroo, but with at least two grab bars welded to the hull as visible in the photo. Normal wisdom has it that these were only on the Wallaby ammo carriers, but apparently at least some Brit 'Roos had them added in the field.

Normal wisdom is right, the rungs or hand rails were not fitted to Kangaroos. But in practice, Gun Towers were converted into Armoured Personnel Carriers (see Mark Tonner's recent articles on this subject), of which the hand rails and rear towing hook were not removed. So externally at least they still looked like Gun Towers, but were in facts APCs.

The B&W photos show what had to be an absolutely rare beast, A Kangaroo made from a Ram with the Wright version of the radial engine (the external mufflers are the giveaway). Given that these needed 100 Octane gas, they would have been a bear to find gas for in the field with everything else using 87 octane. Would not have thought any were converted to 'Roos for that reason, especially given the supply situation in late 44.

I understand your excitement, but I cannot see such a special vehicle with special maintenance needs surviving in the field in 1944.

As pointed out by David Herbert - a veritable Ram expert I might add - chances are that this late during the war, Wright R975-EC2 engines would have been replaced by R975-C1 (or -C4) radial engines, simply because they would no longer be supported by the supply system. And changing them over was relatively easily: if not during conversion, then by the time the original R975-EC2 was worn out, it would have to be replaced by a -C1, simply because EC-2's were no longer to be had from store supplies.

Hanno

[John McGillivray]

Look at this Canadian Newsreel at the 7:57 time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vvVsVU2KhE

[tankmodeler]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

In terms of the exhaust and inlet fittings on the actual engines, R975/EC2 and C1s are identical. It is only the exhaust manifolds that are different, and then only to line up with the different type of mufflers. They are entirely interchangeable. The early arangement was intended to keep all the parts under armour. When it was decided that access for maintainence and better (bigger) aircleaners were more importaint the latter design was adopted. Although it happened at the same time as the change from EC2 to C1 it need not have done though as the C1s were supplied with the later manifolds it was obviously better to make the change then.

David

Great to know,. I was under the impression that the arrangement of the piping and ducting in the C1s was sufficiently different that their air cleaners _had_ to be moved outside, so a tank with the internal air cleaners would _have_ to be fitted with the Wright. Cool to find out this isn't true. Thanks a bunch!

Paul

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

A couple more of which I think we have not seen before. Pictures were taken at 't Woold near Winterswijk, and are dated 31 March 1945. According to the source, a fierce fight was fought at 't Woold during which several dozens of German and English soldiers died. Looks like at least four Kangaroos were knocked out.

Colourised photo from:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...71622#p1671622

[kevinT]

Hi Hanno here are a few more Kangaroos from 49th APCR

Blackpool
Captor
Comet
King John
Mars
Merlin
Neptune
Raider
Revenge
Rotherham
Spear
Tapir
Todmorden

[kevinT]

Pictures only

[kevinT]

These come various sources, IWM, Bill and Barry Miller to name just a few.

Cheers

Kevin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks for the extensive selection, Kevin.

Here is a write up on the Battle at ‘t Woold I made for the Sherman Register page a while ago:

On 30 March 1945, ‘F’ Squadron of British 49th Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment lifted infantry of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Regiment into action. The British Kangaroo Regiment had just added a third fighting Squadron of Kangaroos the week before, converting 52nd Royal Tank Regiment to ‘F’ Squadron 49APCR. The inexperienced troop met stiff resistance at ‘t Woold, near Winterswijk, The Netherlands.

Eight of their Ram Kangaroos were knocked as well as a Stuart Tank that was leading the column. First disabling the leading Stuart, then the rearmost Kangaroo. The column of armour, traveling on a raised roadbed near the village of Winterswijk, was picked off one by one by a lone German ’StuG III’ 75mm tank destroyer. Only one Kangaroo in the column managed to escape.

It was the inexperienced troop’s first taste of combat which resulted in one Kangaroo crewman killed (Cpl. Webber) as well as several infantrymen of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. Some burned alive in the disabled Kangaroos.

With credits to:
- the Canadian Kangaroo Regiment Association and Archives for the historic background
- and Klaas Meijer (@klaasm67) for the pictures.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Interesting, a Stuart VI in that last picture, you don’t see that many photos of those in Commonwealth service, AFAIK.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Interesting, a Stuart VI in that last picture, you don’t see that many photos of those in Commonwealth service, AFAIK.

There are several pictures of these in Commonwealth service in late 1944/early 1945....Canadian, as well as Polish and also British, you will find a couple of them in the pictures taken in Bergen op Zoom oct 1944, and also Eelde in 1945, so in my opinion pictures of these aren't that rare.....but interesting nonetheless!


https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...m3-stuart-tank

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Hi Hanno here are a few more Kangaroos from 49th APCR

Blackpool
Captor
Comet
King John
Mars
Merlin
Neptune
Raider
Revenge
Rotherham
Spear
Tapir
Todmorden

Kevin,

Do you have a listing for TYRANT?

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thanks for the extensive selection, Kevin.

Here is a write up on the Battle at ‘t Woold I made for the Sherman Register page a while ago:

The first photo looks to a Ram Kangaroo named TARANTULA. I cannot make out anything on the second and the Stuart seems to end T???212.
Can anyone make out anything else.

Cheers

Kevin

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Kevin,

Do you have a listing for TYRANT?

Attachment 128924

Hi Hanno,

Only the census CT 160052 and was part of F Squadron.

Cheers

Kevin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Only the census CT 160052 and was part of F Squadron.

Hi Kevin, thank you!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevinT

The first photo looks to a Ram Kangaroo named TARANTULA. I cannot make out anything on the second and the Stuart seems to end T???212.
Can anyone make out anything else.

TARANTULA also appears in a colorized video on youtube, shot at 't Woold: “Liberation Route East Holland in full-color - April 1945" - https://youtu.be/zgiqBwVWcKk

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Hi Hanno,

Only the census CT 160052 and was part of F Squadron.

Cheers

Kevin

Nice work on the model, Kevin!

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

TARANTULA also appears in a colorized video on youtube, shot at 't Woold: “Liberation Route East Holland in full-color - April 1945" - https://youtu.be/zgiqBwVWcKk

Attachment 128967

This is a clear example of why I don't like colorized black and white footage.......someone made a guesstimate about the colour of the RAM.....brown, green? Or was it red?

[Ed Storey]

I agree with Alex, I despise colourized photographs as I consider them to be nothing more then a guess by the 'artist'. They actually distract from the historical record and unfortunately now show up everywhere with little to no information stating that the image has been altered. The worst thing is that the museum community, the people who should know better, have bought into the colourization process.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Only the census CT 160052 and was part of F Squadron.

I posted this photo of TYRANT CT-160052 to which Bill Miller replied:



“After the battle... Tyrant is one of 7 kangaroos of F Squadron, 49APCR knocked out. All named beginning with 'T' (Tarmois, Tapir, Taunt, Tarantula, Tiger, Tyrant & Terror).”

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I posted this photo of TYRANT CT-160052 to which Bill Miller replied:
Attachment 130087


“After the battle... Tyrant is one of 7 kangaroos of F Squadron, 49APCR knocked out. All named beginning with 'T' (Tarmois, Tapir, Taunt, Tarantula, Tiger, Tyrant & Terror).”
Attachment 130088

TARMOIS, TAUNT, TIGER and TERROR are all new to me, are there any photos of these?

Cheers

Kevin

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Interesting, a Stuart VI in that last picture, you don’t see that many photos of those in Commonwealth service, AFAIK.

The scale of issue for Canadian armoured regiments, like the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment (27th Canadian Armoured Regiment) was a recce troop of as many as 11 Stuarts. They were seldom photographed because they were kept quite busy and not as numerous as the Shermans!

Two mentions in the latest regimental history bear repeating. In the race from Falaise to the Seine River, the SFR recce troop were packet escorts. Command wanted to keep the steel tracked tracks off the undamaged roads, and ordered the columns to skirt along field edges and forest tracks. With few maps, the Stuarts shepherded the tanks from one form-up point to the next. The other was very late in the war when the road network up on the North Sea Coast was too soft and narrow for Shermans. Recce troop with attachments lifted a company-minus sized infantry force onto their objective.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Snowtractor

Got my Patton copy today. Armadillo is CT40703 and the other ram in it is Diana CT40372 and has a number 39 on the left rear corner. It is interesting to see the angle iron welded on to the hull to hold baggage on other little add-ons.

Ram Kangaroo CT-40372 "DIANA" of the 49th Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment. One can tell they are British as the crew is using an umbrella to keep the weather at bay ;-)

CT-40372 was Struck Off Strength from Canadian stocks to the British in October 1944.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by kevinT

TARMOIS, TAUNT, TIGER and TERROR are all new to me, are there any photos of these?

Kevin, let me check with Bill Miller who posted that info.

[Bill Miller]

Originally Posted by kevinT

TARMOIS, TAUNT, TIGER and TERROR are all new to me, are there any photos of these?

Hi Kevin, the named list of the seven knocked out Kangaroos at Winterswijk came from a local Dutch historian who also had access to primary documents, accounts and photos (many of which have already been posted here).

I cannot confirm photos of the four names mentioned above. There are photos of a couple other hulls, but the names painted on them cannot be made out clearly.

This hull (T11), I believe, is either Terror or Tiger. According to a detailed infantry account, this kangaroo brewed up immediately and a number of the infantry passengers were burned badly, including one burned to death. Of the kangaroo crewmen in this column, 8 ORs were wounded and Sgt. KFA Webber was killed. In the photo, you can see another Kangaroo in the upper right corner, near a farm building. That is CT40694 Tarantula.

Bill.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Hi Kevin, the named list of the seven knocked out Kangaroos at Winterswijk came from a local Dutch historian who also had access to primary documents, accounts and photos (many of which have already been posted here).

I cannot confirm photos of the four names mentioned above. There are photos of a couple other hulls, but the names painted on them cannot be made out clearly.

This hull (T11), I believe, is either Terror or Tiger. According to a detailed infantry account, this kangaroo brewed up immediately and a number of the infantry passengers were burned badly, including one burned to death. Of the kangaroo crewmen in this column, 8 ORs were wounded and Sgt. KFA Webber was killed. In the photo, you can see another Kangaroo in the upper right corner, near a farm building. That is CT40694 Tarantula.

Bill.

Hi Bill thanks for replying. So do you think that I would be safe in taking the names as accurate., if so I will add them to my database name list and credited to you.

I have tried manipulating the photo but the name is too blurred to be sure it could TAUNT or TERROR but impossible to be sure.

Cheers

Kevin

[Bill Miller]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Hi Bill thanks for replying. So do you think that I would be safe in taking the names as accurate.

Yes, I think you could take them as accurate, considering it was from a primary source and what little photographic evidence there is, corroborates part of the list.

I was going through the 49APCR war diary the other night and found an action report for this incident that also corroborates the account from a veteran of the Ox & Bucks. Sadly, neither the 49APCR diary or the 49APCR Workshop diary records the name or census number of a single Kangaroo APC, they're actually worse than the 1CACR diaries... so really all we have to go on, are 3rd party period documents/letters and photos.

Bill.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Yes, I think you could take them as accurate, considering it was from a primary source and what little photographic evidence there is, corroborates part of the list.

I was going through the 49APCR war diary the other night and found an action report for this incident that also corroborates the account from a veteran of the Ox & Bucks. Sadly, neither the 49APCR diary or the 49APCR Workshop diary records the name or census number of a single Kangaroo APC, they're actually worse than the 1CACR diaries... so really all we have to go on, are 3rd party period documents/letters and photos.

Bill.

Hi Bill Thanks for confirming that. I will add them to my list.

This is what I have so far for 1 CACR:-

A Sqn
Helen, Laura-Mae 3Tp, Lollypop 3Tp, Lonesome Joe, Marion CT159891,

B Sqn
Alice, Buckshee, Butch 3Tp CT160122, Butcher 3Tp CT159493, Fame 3Tp CT160098, Fearless, Ferocious, Fortune, Irene, Hairless Joe HQ, Tp, Jackie, Joan, II and III CT159873, Joan-Margot, Lili Marlene CT160100, Lois, Min 3Tp, Pat 3Tp CT160024, Patty, Pearl, Red Chief, Ruby-Flo 3Tp, Tee-Mick 3 Tp CT160041, Thunder 3 Tp CT159496

C Sqn
Cobault CT159954

Yokum Tp
Daisy-Mae, Granny Yokum, Lil Abner, Lil Sue, Mammy Yokum, Pappy Yokum

Un-confirmed Sqn
Canada, Defiant CT40640, Eileen, Enid, Fatima, Frisky, Happy, Karla, Norma, Phyllis CT160065, Siska, Violet. Too many un-matched census numbers to be listed here. I will post them later.

For 49th APCR I have:-

A Sqn
Anarchist CT40761, Armadillo CT40703, Arsenic CT40657, Assassin CT40347, Blackpool CT40856, Brighton CT40491, Brighton II, Bull CT40601, Callous, Captor, Charger, Cod CT40576, Comet CT40189,

C Sqn
King John, Leicester?, Liberator, Mars CT40730, Merlin CT40458, Neptune, Nero, Nightjar II

F Sqn
Olympian CT40709, Raider, Revenge, Rotherham, Sailor, Spear, Tapir CT39862, Tarantula, Tarmois, Taunt, Terror, Tiger, Todmorden, Tyrant.

Un-confimed
Diana CT40372, CT40592, CT40636

Cheers

Kevin

[Bill Miller]

Kevin,

I have a spread sheet detailing the known/confirmed 1CACR named APCs by Squadron and with census numbers (when known). I've not compiled such data on the 49APCR as of yet.

I will review your lists and get back to you. I do see a few minor errors in what you have.

Bill.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Kevin,

I have a spread sheet detailing the known/confirmed 1CACR named APCs by Squadron and with census numbers (when known). I've not compiled such data on the 49APCR as of yet.

I will review your lists and get back to you. I do see a few minor errors in what you have.

Bill.

Thank you Bill,

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers

Kevin

[Mike K]

As I either walk or drive the into town - I often spot a mob numbering around twenty grazing in a neighbors paddock. I will take some more pics as I am walking into town today .. exercise.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

As I either walk or drive the into town - I often spot a mob numbering around twenty grazing in a neighbors paddock. I will take some more pics as I am walking into town today .. exercise.

Please make sure to add their serial numbers, registration numbers, unit markings and any other detail that can help to ID them and record their history as much as possible.



All kidding aside, there is a surviving Ram Kangaroo in Australia.