Infantry Master Gunner

[RHClarke]

Histories written by members of the same organization may suffer from a bit of regimental pride, overstatement or plain BS (author dependent). I suspect the "story" about a Cdn arty unit disgracing itself may have been passed on over the bar at the mess late one night. The inaccuracies are then multiplied as the story gets retold. Perhaps, Jon, your Master Gunner heard a story about the RCR and the guns that goes like this (taken from RCA Standing Orders)...

In 25th Brigade, most of the raids were carried out by the 1st Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR), supported by A Battery, 1 RCHA. A bond of mutual admiration grew between the battery and the RCR to the point where the guns of the battery had the RCR crest painted on them. A letter from the Commanding Officer of 1 RCHA, Lieutenant-Colonel E.M.D. (Teddy) McNaughton (who in March 1953 changed his surname to Leslie), to the infantry Commanding Officer confirmed this. A phrase in the letter would soon haunt A Battery: "It is also my intention that should ever the day come, from which the Lord preserve us, that a gun of A Battery shoots short onto the Royal Canadian Regiment, that gun and the subsection thereafter for twenty-five years will forgo the high honour and distinction of wearing the Colour and the Cypher of the Royal Canadian Regiment." It was with commendable frankness but undoubtedly with no little chagrin that a little more than a month later the Regimental diarist recorded the forfeiture of this privilege by a gun of A Battery. To the embarrassed members of that gun detachment, 1977 must have seemed far distant indeed! Two years later, however, in view of the consistently fine support given by 1 RCHA to the RCR, the infantry Commanding Officer asked that the penalty be cancelled, and from that time A Battery has proudly worn the RCR crest on all its guns.

All it takes is a few beers and the story gets changed...into crap! I guess I still have some pride in the Captain General's favourite Cdn Army organization...

[Mike Timoshyk]

This is taken from the Canadian Forces Dress Manual

A-AD-265-000/AG-001

APPENDIX 1, ANNEX C CH2-003-02-13

3. Army master
occupational
badges

a. Jacket, service
dress

(1) Worn by WO, MWO and CWO, centred on the right sleeve,
1 cm (3/8 in.) down from the lower edge of the rank badge
to the uppermost point of the master occupational badge.

Sergeants and below, if qualified, will wear as for
occupation badges.

I hope this puts to rest the fact that yes indeed there is indeed a regulation that covers the wearing of Master Occupational Badges.


Mike Timoshyk in Windsor Ontario

[Wayne McGee]

To everyone here, especially to Jon, my appologies for the boner I pulled over the wearing of the Master Gunner Badge.
I never checked a reference, I just spouted. After 28 years of playing the game you would think I would know better. Oh well.
Jon, If you ever run into that MWO again, please relay this story and thank him for the lesson he taught me.
Are there any other master occupational badges out there today?
I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

For general consumption:

The white covers on the forage cap denotes Assistant Instructors In Gunnery, some of whom go on to attend the Master Gunner course. A select few actually make it to the Master Gunner's position/appointment within the artillery. The artillery may run the course, but the Master Gunner course qualification is handed out by the army.

Now to confuse matters, there is the Master Gunner of St. James Park...Damn the gunners for complicating things.

PS - The Armd have their Master Gunners, and now the truckers have a Master Driver...

[Lang]

Great story about Leleifontain. I think 100 men defending a line 4 or 5 kilometres long could have been broken by the local girl guide troop let alone 200 Boers but they certainly put up a fight which I have not read of before.

Regardless of the fact a Victoria Cross has become progressively more difficult to win in each subsequent war, the Canadian troops carried out an outstanding defence.

If any of the Canadians in Afghanistan have ever read of their forefather's participation in the South African debacle they could not but think "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it." Politicians thump their chests, soldiers die - it was ever thus.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

To everyone here, especially to Jon, my appologies for the boner I pulled over the wearing of the Master Gunner Badge.
I never checked a reference, I just spouted. After 28 years of playing the game you would think I would know better. Oh well.
Jon, If you ever run into that MWO again, please relay this story and thank him for the lesson he taught me.
Are there any other master occupational badges out there today?
I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

Wayne: Apology graciously accepted.

Ran into himself on Thursday night in Centurion Mess, ATC Meaford, and related the gist of this thread. He was quite understanding about the confusion that might arise over this issue.

IIRC, he told me that there are three "Master" Qualifications, viz...Master Gunner, Master Driver, Master Sniper.

[Gunner]

Hi Guys:

The Artillery had Master Gunners (the highest technical qualification achievable) and the Ordnance Corps had Conductors (same same).

These were men of deep experience who were charged with the technical examination of military stores and fortress armaments. Generally each fort had a Master Gunner and each "trayne" had a Conductor. The title of Conductor died out many years ago.

About 10 years ago the army separated the Master Gunner qualification from the trade progression of the artillery. Ths was done so that everyone who aspired to CWO (in the Guns) didn't have to take the Mr Gnr course. Concurrently the course was moved to RMC and tied to the new Canadian version of the Technical Staff course which was at one time only open to arty and RCEME officers. Now called the Army Technical WO course with the traditional name of Mr Gnr tied to the qualification, it is open to all army WO+ who wish to follow a technical career path in equipment acquisition, testing and life cycle maintenance. It has next to nothing to do with the technical aspects of actually firing Guns in anger as these skills are taught at a much earlier stage in career development for Gunners and mortarmen. Mr Gnrs are the techie 'dweebs' (meant in the same respectful term as I use for my 'dweeb' brother who makes much more than I do!) of the army. Master Sniper and Master Driver ( a new one on me) do not require the university level knowledge of the Master Gunner (no insult to either as they are certainly masters of their skills) but Mr Gnr, to the best of my knowledge, is still the only master skill badge worn by WO+.

The Mr Gnr of St James Park is the senior serving Gunner of the Commonwealth forces and has direct access to HM, the Captain General of the Artillery. He is usually a retired MGen or higher and the role is purely ceremonial and tied to the heart of the Royal Regiment as opposed to its technical brain like the Mr Gnrs created at RMC.

There is no truth to any stories about the Gunners abandoning their Guns and then having another Corps or Regiment gain some honour for "saving" them. For example, the rearguard action at Liliefontein was a cooperative action by Lt Morrison's two gun section of D Bty (no historical connection to D Bty, 2 RCHA who choose perpetuate the role but actually have less claim to it then 2 (Ottawa) Fd Bty, 30 RCA). "Tiny" was awarded a DSO (as a LT this means it was for valour and at the time one down from the VC.) There were many medals handed out for this action but this is always lost in the shadow of the RCD's well earned VCs.

There was no "saving" the guns in the sense of the Gunners running away... in fact one of the Guns was put into deep jeopardy by the detachment delaying their withdrawal so that Sgt Holland could jump aboard with his smoking Colt MG clutched in his blistered hands and arms. In what we would now call "pepper potting", the RCD and Guns alternated between galloping rearwards and deploying to stall the Boers and protect the rear of the column. It was this courageous and all out effort to PROTECT THE COLUMN that won all the medals, not "SAVING" the Guns. Hundreds of lives would have been lost and untold materiel would have fallen into the Boers hands had they managed to disrupt the column or cause it to withdraw in an unorderly fashion (read- retreat from Moscow).

On the lanyard issue there is some truth to the fact that they were moved in 1920 when Royal was bestowed on the Non-permamnent militia part of the artillery. Photographic evidence shows the "regulars" (as we know them now) wearing the lanyard on the right well before 1920 and they had been granted Royal back in 1881. Rob is right on the button about why they are white.

UBIQUE! Mike (in Mali)