Infantry Master Gunner

[Jon Skagfeld]

Sitting at lunch today, an RCR Master Warrant Officer in full DEU (because of a grad pde), stopped to talk to one of our party.

He sported a Master Gunner insignia on his right sleeve below his MWO crest.

When he left, I asked of the table what the significance was, since I had never seen this before.

This is what I was told: During the South African War, a Canadian Artillery abandoned its post, leaving its guns behind. The RCR took and defended the position until the firefight was won.

The GOC, or some other higher up, presented a lanyard taken from one of the guns to the RCR who were then authorized to have qualified Master Gunners in their establishment.

As I indicated, I've never heard of this before. All during my service I associated with RCA types who always wore their white lanyard on the left shoulder.

Could it have then been RCHA who suffered this ignominy?

Anyone have authentic reference to this?

(Mark....start leafing through dusty tomes )

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Sitting at lunch today, an RCR Master Warrant Officer

Jon;

Send me his name by e-mail or PM.

Cheers

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here’s a quote from RCHA Right of the Line.
In British annals Master Gunners have been prominent on ships-of-war and later in the RA since the 14th century; they have been key Warrant Officers-even some officers-in Canadian artillery garrisons from the formation of “A” and “B” Batteries of 1871.

[Wayne McGee]

As far as I know, Warrant Officers wear no Trade Badges of any kind. Master, advanced trained it doesn't matter.
Warrant Officer rank is worn on the lower sleeve in lieu of a Trade Badge.
Somebody's trying to pull a fast one.

[Rookie]

Through a drunken haze after a Mess Dinner one night I remember hearing a similar story of why a Regiment (who knows but possibly artillery) lost a flame off their cap badge due to losing their guns that were recaptured by another regiment. Can I add to the urban myth but I have heard this story although it did not relate to Canadian forces.

Rookie

[Wayne McGee]

The Military is chock-a-block overflowing with rumoured, unsubstantiated explanations for every shade of hackle, lanyard wear, choice of Regimental Colours, kilt pattern, on and on and on.
99% of these "Regimental Quiffs" fall in to one of two categories:
a. If the particular "Quiff" is describing the wearer in a positive light then the "history" of that item was invented by his Unit. (in the Mess)
b. If the particular "Quiff" is describing the wearar in a negative light then the "history" of that item was invented by another Unit. (in the Mess)
If the truth was really known, you would probably discover that many of the supposed honours/dishonours eg. white hackles, lanyards, number of flames on a bomb etc, were merely fashion statements concocted by CO's, their RSM's, and the village tailor. (in the Mess)

[rob love]

I finished the last 7 years of my regular force career attached to 1 RCHA. The story about the abandoned guns was always around, but documentation about it isn't quite as common. The story also went that the artillery lost it's colors as a result, and that the guns themselves were now the colors, in the hope that they wouldn't again be abandoned. This rumour always persisted, and the occasional officer had verified it's authenticity, for what that was worth. I would really like to hear the truth behind this story, whatever that might be.

During my few years with A bty, our guns bore the crest of the RCR. This wasn't because of the abandoned gun incident, but rather because of a guarantee by the Artillery that they wouldn't shell the RCR during their time in Korea together. There did end up being a shelling incident, and as a result, A bty guns have the RCR crest on them.

Regarding the colors on the gun, the garter and crown on the barrel is regarded as the unit's colors. As a result, one did not casually sit on the trails of a gun, or lean up against a gun for no reason. On disposal, the crest on the barrel was supposed to be scrubbed, although I have yet to see a barrel with the crest removed.

I am certain Mike Calnan can clarify and elaborate on these anecdotes. And in the case of the abandoned guns, I really would like to hear the factual truth behind this one way or another.


Edited to add: a google search took me to a discussion on the army.ca forum: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.p...c,21974.0.html
If this is a myth, it certainly is a persistent one which does not want to go away. And if there indeed was a 100 year disgrace there certainly was nothing to commemorate the ending of it while I was in the unit.

[Mike Timoshyk]

The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery carries no colours, in the unsual sense of the word. The guns are its colours. On ceremonial occaisons the guns are accorded the same marks of respect as the standards, guidons and colours of other units. The reason behind this long-held tradition is related to the gunner's motto "ubique", meaning everywhere, this that the artillery hs been present in just about every campaign.

The custom of the guns being colours dates back from the eighteenth century and the Royal Artillery's practice of that time of designating the largest gun of an artillery train as the flag gun, that is, the piece accorded the honour of bearing the equivalant of the soverign's colour. This evolved into the guns being regarded as the colours of the artillery.

E.C. Russell - Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Forces (Deneau Publishers and Co. Ltd in cooperation with the Department of National Defence second printing May 1981)

Mike Timoshyk in Windsor

[Wayne McGee]

Back to subject.
As unlikely as it may be, I am not calling into question the possibility of an Infantry MWO holding the qualification of Master Gunner. Nor am I suggesting that an Artillery MWO does not wear the trade badge of Master Gunner if so qualified (though I do not beleive he does), but that is out of my lane.
However, as I said earlier, no Infantry Warrant Officer wears a Trade Badge.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

Sitting at lunch today, an RCR Master Warrant Officer in full DEU (because of a grad pde), stopped to talk to one of our party.

He sported a Master Gunner insignia on his right sleeve below his MWO crest.

When he left, I asked of the table what the significance was, since I had never seen this before.

This is what I was told: During the South African War, a Canadian Artillery abandoned its post, leaving its guns behind. The RCR took and defended the position until the firefight was won.

The GOC, or some other higher up, presented a lanyard taken from one of the guns to the RCR who were then authorized to have qualified Master Gunners in their establishment.

As I indicated, I've never heard of this before. All during my service I associated with RCA types who always wore their white lanyard on the left shoulder.

Could it have then been RCHA who suffered this ignominy?

Anyone have authentic reference to this?

(Mark....start leafing through dusty tomes )

Jon, a transport Sargeant at my old unit 192 AEF Abbotsford would wear a lanyard with his DEUs. I asked him about it and he related a story of how an abandoned artillery battery was recovered by members of a transport unit and since then they have been allowed to wear the lanyard as a battle honour. I don't remember the whos, wheres and whens of the story, further, I've forgotten his last name, but his first name is Mark. If you're interested in hearing his story, here are the contact numbers:

Orderly Room: toll free at 1 888 968-2478 or (604) 556-2540
Fax: (604) 556-2385

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

Back to subject.
As unlikely as it may be, I am not calling into question the possibility of an Infantry MWO holding the qualification of Master Gunner. Nor am I suggesting that an Artillery MWO does not wear the trade badge of Master Gunner if so qualified (though I do not beleive he does), but that is out of my lane.
However, as I said earlier, no Infantry Warrant Officer wears a Trade Badge.

Wayne...I saw it with my own eyes. All our Instructors sitting at table saw it. It was in the gold "bullion" material the same as all DEU insigniae.

I don't think, anyway, that this would be classed as a trade badge, rather an appointment, perhaps?

[Wayne McGee]

I'm sorry you missunderstood Jon, I'm not doubting what you saw, but the MWO's authority to wear the badge.
The lower right sleeve is the domain of your qualifications.
"Bayonnet"= qualified Infantryman
"Crossed Rifles"= qualified with his personal weapon for that year.
"WO, MWO, CWO"= None of your effen buisiness, I'll ask the questions around here!

Cheers

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Jon Skagfeld

... an RCR Master Warrant Officer in full DEU (because of a grad pde), stopped to talk to one of our party. He sported a Master Gunner insignia on his right sleeve below his MWO crest...This is what I was told: During the South African War, a Canadian Artillery abandoned its post, leaving its guns behind. The RCR took and defended the position until the firefight was won...The GOC, or some other higher up, presented a lanyard taken from one of the guns to the RCR who were then authorized to have qualified Master Gunners in their establishment....As I indicated, I've never heard of this before. All during my service I associated with RCA types who always wore their white lanyard on the left shoulder. Could it have then been RCHA who suffered this ignominy?

Anyone have authentic reference to this?

(Mark....start leafing through dusty tomes )

Jon,

If you should meet others with the same or likewise story, ask them to quote the reference...don't hold your breath. What malarky!

If I had a penny for every story given by so called military historical "experts" about how units such as the 5th Canadian Independent Line Recovery Troop of the 12th Underground Balloon Corps saved the guns that the gunners apparently had just abandoned (for tea, I suppose), I'd be rich.

As for the lanyard, I thought I heard it all. Tripe, I say! Here is a more plausible (and truthful) explanation: The lanyard had a genuine purpose in war. It was originally a piece of cord, approximately a metre in length, used to secure a jack-knife which was issued to both the artillery and the cavalry. The knife had a number of uses; the blade was for cutting loose horses which became entangled in the head and heel ropes of the picket lines, and the spike of the knife was used as a hoof pick, for the removal of stones from horses hooves. A fuse key was also attached to the lanyard.
Hanging loose, the lanyard soon became dirty and for the day-to-day barrack routine it looked out of place on an otherwise smart uniform; so for peace time purposes the lanyard was plaited, and whitened with Blanco, to match both the white bandolier and the white waist belt worn by the gunners of the day. The lanyard was worn on the left shoulder with the end containing both the knife and fuse key tucked into the left breast pocket.
In 1920 the lanyard was moved to the right shoulder, simply because of the difficult problem of trying to remove the knife from the pocket underneath the bandolier. By now the bandolier and belt, worn with battle dress, had long ceased to be white, whilst the lanyard remained so.
The knife was removed in 1933 and the lanyard then became a straight cord, worn purely as an ornamental item of dress. In 1955 it was, for a short time, reintroduced in the plaited style, but it is rarely worn today by gunners (some Artillery Cadet Corps being the exception).
There is simply no truth either to any other popular story regarding the Artillery's white lanyard. Visit any Commonwealth Gunner site and try to find info to the contrary - better still, go to any Regimental history and try to find supporting evidence.

As for "losing the guns" let's look at Leliefontein 7 November 1900. From the War Museum website: Quote: In the early morning of 6 November, a strong British column left the eastern Transvaal town of Belfast and rode south to disperse a large Boer commando reported to be camped about thirty kilometres to the south near the Komati River. The force included the Canadian Mounted Rifles, the Royal Canadian Dragoons, and one section of "D" Battery, Royal Canadian Field Artillery (now with 2RCHA Petawawa), with two 12-pounder guns. After forcing the commando back across the river, the column camped for the night near a farm named Leliefontein. Boer resistance had been stronger than expected, however, and the British commander expected them to be reinforced during the night. He therefore issued orders for a return to Belfast in the morning. The Boer commander, who had brought up reinforcements, believed that the British would continue their advance, and prepared to meet them on the road heading south in the morning.
To cover his withdrawal, the British commander detailed the Royal Canadian Dragoons and the two 12-pounder field guns of "D" Battery as his rearguard, all under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel François-Louis Lessard of the Dragoons. The Dragoons were seriously under strength, mustering no more than one hundred men and a horse-drawn Colt machine gun. However, the Canadian horsemen and artillerymen were experienced, and had worked together long enough to operate as a team. The Dragoons deployed in a line four or five kilometres across covering the rear of the departing British column with the guns and the machine gun in the centre.
As soon as the Boers realized that the British were retiring, large parties began to press the Canadian rearguard. (See maps) During the morning the Boers mounted a series of strong attacks at various points along the Canadian line. These attacks culminated in a charge by two hundred mounted Boers firing from the saddle that threatened to break the Canadian line and capture the two field guns. The charge was only beaten off by the gallantry of a small party of Dragoons and the fire of the machine gun, which killed the two Boer commanders. The Boers continued to attack, but the loss of their leaders had disoriented them, and as the Canadians neared the rear of the retreating British column, the Boers lost momentum.
Leliefontein was the most desperate situation faced by Canadians during the war. The number of decorations, including Victoria Crosses to Lieutenants H.Z. C. Cockburn, R.E.W. Turner and Sergeant E.J. Holland, all of the Royal Canadian Dragoons, attests to the intensity of the fighting. UnQuote


As for your Master Gunner, I think he was pulling your leg about having a qualified Master Gunners on their establishment. The Master Gunner course is open to all who qualify, including grunts.

I thought I heard it all…

[Darrell Zinck]

HI

I'll throw in what I know...........

I know a chap who was an Armoured MWO and qualified "Master Gunner" proper. He never worn anything on the cuff of his DEU tunic other than his rank. Let's just say that he was exactly the type of guy who would have worn something (like this bullion described above) if he was permitted to. However, he was Army enough (and honestly professional enough) to know not to wear something not permitted to wear also.

I also know that every year on the Royal Canadian Dragoon parade honouring our three Boer War VCs won in the action at Leliefontein, the Arty guys from the RCHA come over, in period dress, and pull one of the actual 12pdrs "saved" in that action, across in front of the Regiment. Not a requirement, mind you, but rather done willingly by them for us. I always thought it pretty cool for them to do that. Then on St Barbara's Day, we go pull their duties so they can go get pissed!!!

Besides............ALL Armoured Gunners are "Master" gunners!!!

regards
Darrell

[RHClarke]

Histories written by members of the same organization may suffer from a bit of regimental pride, overstatement or plain BS (author dependent). I suspect the "story" about a Cdn arty unit disgracing itself may have been passed on over the bar at the mess late one night. The inaccuracies are then multiplied as the story gets retold. Perhaps, Jon, your Master Gunner heard a story about the RCR and the guns that goes like this (taken from RCA Standing Orders)...

In 25th Brigade, most of the raids were carried out by the 1st Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR), supported by A Battery, 1 RCHA. A bond of mutual admiration grew between the battery and the RCR to the point where the guns of the battery had the RCR crest painted on them. A letter from the Commanding Officer of 1 RCHA, Lieutenant-Colonel E.M.D. (Teddy) McNaughton (who in March 1953 changed his surname to Leslie), to the infantry Commanding Officer confirmed this. A phrase in the letter would soon haunt A Battery: "It is also my intention that should ever the day come, from which the Lord preserve us, that a gun of A Battery shoots short onto the Royal Canadian Regiment, that gun and the subsection thereafter for twenty-five years will forgo the high honour and distinction of wearing the Colour and the Cypher of the Royal Canadian Regiment." It was with commendable frankness but undoubtedly with no little chagrin that a little more than a month later the Regimental diarist recorded the forfeiture of this privilege by a gun of A Battery. To the embarrassed members of that gun detachment, 1977 must have seemed far distant indeed! Two years later, however, in view of the consistently fine support given by 1 RCHA to the RCR, the infantry Commanding Officer asked that the penalty be cancelled, and from that time A Battery has proudly worn the RCR crest on all its guns.

All it takes is a few beers and the story gets changed...into crap! I guess I still have some pride in the Captain General's favourite Cdn Army organization...

[Mike Timoshyk]

This is taken from the Canadian Forces Dress Manual

A-AD-265-000/AG-001

APPENDIX 1, ANNEX C CH2-003-02-13

3. Army master
occupational
badges

a. Jacket, service
dress

(1) Worn by WO, MWO and CWO, centred on the right sleeve,
1 cm (3/8 in.) down from the lower edge of the rank badge
to the uppermost point of the master occupational badge.

Sergeants and below, if qualified, will wear as for
occupation badges.

I hope this puts to rest the fact that yes indeed there is indeed a regulation that covers the wearing of Master Occupational Badges.


Mike Timoshyk in Windsor Ontario

[Wayne McGee]

To everyone here, especially to Jon, my appologies for the boner I pulled over the wearing of the Master Gunner Badge.
I never checked a reference, I just spouted. After 28 years of playing the game you would think I would know better. Oh well.
Jon, If you ever run into that MWO again, please relay this story and thank him for the lesson he taught me.
Are there any other master occupational badges out there today?
I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

For general consumption:

The white covers on the forage cap denotes Assistant Instructors In Gunnery, some of whom go on to attend the Master Gunner course. A select few actually make it to the Master Gunner's position/appointment within the artillery. The artillery may run the course, but the Master Gunner course qualification is handed out by the army.

Now to confuse matters, there is the Master Gunner of St. James Park...Damn the gunners for complicating things.

PS - The Armd have their Master Gunners, and now the truckers have a Master Driver...

[Lang]

Great story about Leleifontain. I think 100 men defending a line 4 or 5 kilometres long could have been broken by the local girl guide troop let alone 200 Boers but they certainly put up a fight which I have not read of before.

Regardless of the fact a Victoria Cross has become progressively more difficult to win in each subsequent war, the Canadian troops carried out an outstanding defence.

If any of the Canadians in Afghanistan have ever read of their forefather's participation in the South African debacle they could not but think "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it." Politicians thump their chests, soldiers die - it was ever thus.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Mark: I think I screwed up both in using the new PM feature and the spelling of the Master Gunner's name.

It's MWO Chris Neonow.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by Wayne McGee

To everyone here, especially to Jon, my appologies for the boner I pulled over the wearing of the Master Gunner Badge.
I never checked a reference, I just spouted. After 28 years of playing the game you would think I would know better. Oh well.
Jon, If you ever run into that MWO again, please relay this story and thank him for the lesson he taught me.
Are there any other master occupational badges out there today?
I am a aware that Master Gunners are recognized by their white forage cap covers, but I thought that wear was restricted to special events.
I know that the Infantry had Master Machine-gunners as late as the late '60's and I suspect that there were Master Mortarman ?, Pioneers ?, Anti-armour ?, Recce ?, Sniper ?
I am glad to see that such a prestigious, ancient, and hard won accomplishment is displayed even if only handed out by the Artillery "Mafia"


Cheers

Wayne: Apology graciously accepted.

Ran into himself on Thursday night in Centurion Mess, ATC Meaford, and related the gist of this thread. He was quite understanding about the confusion that might arise over this issue.

IIRC, he told me that there are three "Master" Qualifications, viz...Master Gunner, Master Driver, Master Sniper.

[Gunner]

Hi Guys:

The Artillery had Master Gunners (the highest technical qualification achievable) and the Ordnance Corps had Conductors (same same).

These were men of deep experience who were charged with the technical examination of military stores and fortress armaments. Generally each fort had a Master Gunner and each "trayne" had a Conductor. The title of Conductor died out many years ago.

About 10 years ago the army separated the Master Gunner qualification from the trade progression of the artillery. Ths was done so that everyone who aspired to CWO (in the Guns) didn't have to take the Mr Gnr course. Concurrently the course was moved to RMC and tied to the new Canadian version of the Technical Staff course which was at one time only open to arty and RCEME officers. Now called the Army Technical WO course with the traditional name of Mr Gnr tied to the qualification, it is open to all army WO+ who wish to follow a technical career path in equipment acquisition, testing and life cycle maintenance. It has next to nothing to do with the technical aspects of actually firing Guns in anger as these skills are taught at a much earlier stage in career development for Gunners and mortarmen. Mr Gnrs are the techie 'dweebs' (meant in the same respectful term as I use for my 'dweeb' brother who makes much more than I do!) of the army. Master Sniper and Master Driver ( a new one on me) do not require the university level knowledge of the Master Gunner (no insult to either as they are certainly masters of their skills) but Mr Gnr, to the best of my knowledge, is still the only master skill badge worn by WO+.

The Mr Gnr of St James Park is the senior serving Gunner of the Commonwealth forces and has direct access to HM, the Captain General of the Artillery. He is usually a retired MGen or higher and the role is purely ceremonial and tied to the heart of the Royal Regiment as opposed to its technical brain like the Mr Gnrs created at RMC.

There is no truth to any stories about the Gunners abandoning their Guns and then having another Corps or Regiment gain some honour for "saving" them. For example, the rearguard action at Liliefontein was a cooperative action by Lt Morrison's two gun section of D Bty (no historical connection to D Bty, 2 RCHA who choose perpetuate the role but actually have less claim to it then 2 (Ottawa) Fd Bty, 30 RCA). "Tiny" was awarded a DSO (as a LT this means it was for valour and at the time one down from the VC.) There were many medals handed out for this action but this is always lost in the shadow of the RCD's well earned VCs.

There was no "saving" the guns in the sense of the Gunners running away... in fact one of the Guns was put into deep jeopardy by the detachment delaying their withdrawal so that Sgt Holland could jump aboard with his smoking Colt MG clutched in his blistered hands and arms. In what we would now call "pepper potting", the RCD and Guns alternated between galloping rearwards and deploying to stall the Boers and protect the rear of the column. It was this courageous and all out effort to PROTECT THE COLUMN that won all the medals, not "SAVING" the Guns. Hundreds of lives would have been lost and untold materiel would have fallen into the Boers hands had they managed to disrupt the column or cause it to withdraw in an unorderly fashion (read- retreat from Moscow).

On the lanyard issue there is some truth to the fact that they were moved in 1920 when Royal was bestowed on the Non-permamnent militia part of the artillery. Photographic evidence shows the "regulars" (as we know them now) wearing the lanyard on the right well before 1920 and they had been granted Royal back in 1881. Rob is right on the button about why they are white.

UBIQUE! Mike (in Mali)