Stuart VI Recce (was: Stuart Recce replacement)

Can someone tell me what vehicle replaced the Honey as a scout vehicle with the RCAC in late 1944/early 1945?
The details I have are: 15 tonnes, twin Chrysler powerplant, and turreted with a "small" gun.

[Don Dingwall]

This was the Stuart VI (M5A1). They retained their turrets, and replaced the Stuart V in the recce troops. A quantity of Stuart V's were kept on hand as ammo carriers, ambulances and supply vehicles by certain regiments, particularly the ones that came up from Italy, in 1 CAB and 5 CAD.

HTH
Don

Hmmm. I know my uncle is getting old but I find it odd that he didn't realize his 'new' tank was still a Stuart!
I'll talk further with him to find out more details but it makes sense since I can find no other vehicle that meets his description.
His original recce Stuart came with his regiment from England with the 14AR 1CAB.

[Don Dingwall]

Sorry but I doubt he took a Stuart V with the regiment to Italy. It may have been (small chance) that it was an earlier Stuart, but I've found no record of any going to Sicily, as I have the shipping records.
They generally used scout cars and carriers in their recce troops till the spring of '44. At that point the Stuart V recce tank had been suitably developed and was issued first to 5 CAD, then the rest of the CW units in Italy got it afterwards.
This would have put their receipt of Stuarts sometime around the Feb-May timeframe.

As far as being a "new" tank that he got, the Stuart V and VI, despite being very similar outside, were indeed very different inside, with the V being equipped with a radial, and the VI having the twin Caddys.

Don

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Sparrow,

Click here to see pictures and details of Stuart VI, PRESS ON, CT271427. It was brought home by Lincoln and Welland Regiment after WW2.

Regards,
Hanno

He is certain the tanks came with them from England to Italy. They trained in them but in Sicily he rode motorcycles until the Honey's arrived.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Sparrow
and turreted with a "small" gun.

The pic below is of a couple of New Zealand Stuart V Recce's of 20 Armd Regt near Trieste, Italy. The leading and third tanks sport pintle mounted Brownings with plate gunshields that look reminiscent of early Vietnam -era M113's. Could something like this be the "turreted small gun" referred to by Sparrow?

I think Don is correct about the vehicle. No other vehicle matches the description closer:
Twin Chryslers (Cadillac), small gun (3.7), 15 tonnes, and "new" (to the Canadians I guess in 1945) since the Honey was considered obsolete.
Cool picture though.
And interesting as my uncle did state that 3 recce were attached to each squadron of tanks.
My uncle has had a stroke so details (like the recce in Sicily) may be incorrect... but at this point I have to believe him until I have irrefutable proof otherwise... no disrespect intended here.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Although a turretless Stuart VI Recce exists, pictures of them in use are scare. Here are some Honeys with the turret removed as used by Recce Troop of the 8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars (RAC) (source)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Although a turretless Stuart VI Recce exists, pictures of them in use are scare.

Here's another pic, showing a Stuart VI Recce in Belgium, 1944 (source: http://www.cegesoma.be):

Engelse tank voor SInt-Jozefskerk - Charlottelei : 4/9/1944.

Aan het Stadspark - Charlottelei : 4/9/1944. Engelse tank (infanterie).

[second image added 19-feb-2008]

[servicepub (RIP)]

From "Tools of the Trade":

Pending the availability of Ram Cruisers, American tanks had been provided by the War Office. By February 1942, 5th Canadian Armoured Division held 40 “General Lee” Cruiser tanks and five “General Stuart” Light tanks. As of that date no other Canadian formation used these tanks.
In October 1943, the decision was taken to use light tanks in place of carriers in armoured regiments following the British practice. At about the same time the War Office adopted a new establishment for armoured reconnaissance regiments which called for 30 light tanks per regiment. This was adopted by the Canadian Army early in November. The War Office undertook to supply Stuart V light tanks (Light M3A3) to cover Canadian requirements. Unfortunately, the supply situation was poor and some of the Stuarts received were in bad condition. This situation showed little improvement during the next five months. At the end of May 1944, the Canadian Army held only 36 Stuart tanks against an establishment of 77 in six armoured regiments and one armoured reconnaissance regiment (later re-organized as an armoured regiment), and the unsatisfactory condition of many of those delivered still prevailed. The 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade was, however, almost completely equipped. By the end of June, before they had seen action, 4th Canadian Armoured Division had also received all but two of their Stuart tanks. Early in August it was possible to release nine Stuarts surplus to field requirements to Canadian Reinforcement Units.
A proposal was made to replace some or all of the light tanks in the Canadian Army with scout cars. Although this was not carried out, in October 1942 steps were taken to replace the Stuart V with some other light tank. A number of American M24 light tanks had been allotted to the United Kingdom on the understanding that they would not be issued until the American troops had them. They would be issued to Canadian formations through 21st Army Group. It mounted a 75-mm gun as compared with the 37-mm carried by the Stuart V. Meanwhile, a policy was adopted of replacing all Stuart V Tanks with Stuart VI’s (M5 and M5A1). Early in November First Canadian Army reported that this replacement was nearing completion. At the end of December the Canadian Army held 76 Stuart VI tanks against an establishment of 77. The deficiency was covered by three Stuart V tanks still held, but no M24 tanks had yet been issued.
Although the Stuart V was not particularly satisfactory in North-West Europe. In that theatre the Canadians employed them principally with the turrets removed and a .50 Browning machine gun mounted on top. Known as “Honey” tanks the Stuarts were frequently mentioned as giving good service.
In addition to the Lees used by the 5th Canadian Armoured Division, a certain number of Grants were subsequently issued. The Equipment State for 31 August 1942 shows 23 of these tanks on issue. These tanks were also used by the 4th Canadian Armoured Division after its arrival in the United Kingdom. By November 1943, only one Grant remained on charge. There were also seven obsolete M2A4 tanks in stock. Stuarts were, at the time, once more required as light tanks for certain units.

[wayne c. petrie]

Hanno,those pic's of the Linc's and Wink's Stuart are great. I have passed by that vehicle numerious times. I always thought it to be some version of a Brengun carrier, [SILLY ME, ex RCEME{res} no excuse].

I joined this forum to learn.I am not disappointed.You guys are great.

Wayne

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by wayne c. petrie
Hanno,those pic's of the Linc's and Wink's Stuart are great.

Wayne, my pleasure!

Pictured below is a Stuart Gun Tractor (used post-WW2 by British Army), restored as a Stuart Recce - a refreshing sight, I think.

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

The machine gun ring whilst sensible is probably going a bit further than most of the improvised conversions pictured.

The Americans from memory also did a limited standard version of this vehicle.

[Gunner]

Hide the tracks with your hand and, voila: the M113 1/2 Lynx!

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
The machine gun ring whilst sensible is probably going a bit further than most of the improvised conversions pictured.

The Americans from memory also did a limited standard version of this vehicle.

Neil,

I spoke to the owner and he showed me the picture that inspired him: it was a picture of the T8 or T8E1 Reconnaissance vehicle.
Reportedly, the Commonwealth Stuart Recce inspired the US Army to standardise the concept, resulting in the T8/T8E1 Reconnaissance vehicle based on the M5A1 Light Tank. But after testing in 1944, the Armored Board only ordered that Theater Commanders be made aware that conversion kits could be made available. I doubt they were actually used in action, let alone in substantial numbers.

Anyway, I did not want sound pedantic and tell the owner who spends his own time, sweat and money on this vehicle that it is "wrong". Luckily he did not fit mine racks on the hull sides and some other features which are typical of the T8/T8E1, so if you hide the MG ring with your hand like Gunner suggested, you see a Stuart VI Recce.

First I thought this conversion was carried out by a friend of mine, but it turned out the current owner converted this Recce tank from the sand coloured Stuart with replica turret, which is well-known from its car crushing performances at Beltring. So there is a second Stuart restored as a Recce tank in the UK. Anyone seen it?

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

In In the background, Alex posted a picture of a Stuart VI Recce on the "Grote markt" in Bergen op Zoom, Holland.

H.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Two Recce Stuart V's and one with turret. city Archives of Ede.

source: http://www1.ede.nl/atlantis/?applica...l_per_pagina=9


Alex

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Close up of a scan of image #NAC PA204157 from Illustrated History of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps 2000 RCACA by John Marteinson and Michael McNorgan.

Caption states: "Honey Tank of the Strathcona Recce Troop at the 'Benedictine' Crossroads, on their way to seizure of a bridgehead over the Melfa River."

So 24 May 1944 in Italy.

regards
Darrell

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

I was just thinking to myself (safer that way) that maybe Sparrow's Uncle could be talking about an M24 "Chaffee". I know it was 18.5t and the gun was 75mm but it did have twin Cadillacs and that 75mm was rather a short barrel. Also it certainly was "new".

I know Canada had them for a short time but did we have then in Europe in 1945? I know some Brits did.

Just a thought.

regards
Darrell

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

In In the background, Alex posted a picture of a Stuart VI Recce on the "Grote markt" in Bergen op Zoom, Holland.

Anti-Tank troops have an OP tank for the troop commander. In the case of the 4th Anti-Tank Regiment of the 5th Armoured Division, they are using turretless Stuarts in that role (see photo below). I went through the photos on the Bergen op Zoom site and there appears to be only one turretless Stuart VI. All of the other Stuarts have their turrets. There are also photos on the site showing 17pdr M-10s belonging to J Troop of the 5th A/T Regt. Could it be that the lone turretless Stuart VI is the OP tank (RJ) from the anti-tank troop?

[Gunner]

Hi John:

I thought so too for a moment but a closer examination of the Bergen Op Zoom Stuart shows that it is an M5 with the raised rear deck and vertical sides (twin caddies). The 5th ATk Stuarts are M3A3 with the level deck and sloped sides (radial engine).

Mike in Mali

[Ron Goldstein]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Although a turretless Stuart VI Recce exists, pictures of them in use are scare. Here are some Honeys with the turret removed as used by Recce Troop of the 8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars (RAC) (source)

Hi Gents

I know I've posted here before, but browsing the internet just now I came across these fascinating photos of Stuart tanks that had the turrets removed. I went back to my diaries and found the following:

My first shock on joining "A" Squadron was to find the following:
l. I had been assigned as wireless operator to the SSM (Squadron Sergeant Major), one Sgt. Major "Busty" Thomas, as Welsh as it was possible to be.
2. His tank wasn’t the nice, solid-looking Sherman on which I had been trained for the past three months, but was instead a Stuart tank from the 8th Army desert days. To make matters worse its turret had been removed and the only protection "up top" was a canvas hood that was designed to keep the rain off.
3. The SSM's job on the battlefield was to act as nursemaid to the squadron, and this involved anything and everything that no-one else had been detailed for, including picking up stragglers, prisoners, the wounded, and in fact every job that no one else could be spared for, or, would want to do.

Full article below:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a2310003.shtml

Cheers

Ron

ps
Sorry to confuse you good folk but I've just realised that my previous posting was made under my nom-de-plume of "49th Light Ack Ack"......that's the problem with changing horses in midstream

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

Anti-Tank troops have an OP tank for the troop commander. In the case of the 4th Anti-Tank Regiment of the 5th Armoured Division, they are using turretless Stuarts in that role (see photo below). I went through the photos on the Bergen op Zoom site and there appears to be only one turretless Stuart VI. All of the other Stuarts have their turrets. There are also photos on the site showing 17pdr M-10s belonging to J Troop of the 5th A/T Regt. Could it be that the lone turretless Stuart VI is the OP tank (RJ) from the anti-tank troop?

John,

I never knew turretless Stuarst were used in the OP role. Yes, I think you could be right.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Ron Goldstein

I went back to my diaries and found the following:

Dear Ron,

Great to have a veteran among us. Thanks for your contribution

Best regards,
Hanno

[Dutchy]

Hi gents, newbie here.
I hope you don't mind my commenting, but I've just finished reading a great book called Taming The Panzers - Monty's Tank Battalions (3RTR at War) where the turretless modification to the Stuart gets a mention.

The reasoning behind removing the turret in the first place was apparently that it stuck up too high over the 'bocage' hedging in France when the recce units were belting round the small lanes. As the turret (a) offered minimal protection, (b) made an ideal target and (c) the armament was pretty useless by then, it was therefore decided to get rid.

Apparently after removing the turret, the 3RTR recce Sqn guys welded a semi-circle of steel (usually from a knocked out Sherman or suchlike) over half the remaining hole and mounted a MG on the new base.

Unfortunately, the book was woefully short of pics of the conversion.

HTH

[Dutchy]

I thought some of you might be interested in seeing a turretless Stuart model I've just finished.

It's based on a Tamiya M5A1 with a scratch built interior and has markings for 3RTR in the Normandy bocage '44. Initially I only put a .30 on the front mount but after reading some of Ron's writings elsewhere decided that an AA .50 needed fitting too.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ken.hol...00Dsc03495.jpg

Ron, apologies if I've got things in the wrong place - but you didn't give much detail away.

[Ron Goldstein]

Hi Ken

Purely by chance I spotted your Honey model and I'm flattered to learn that you added the .50 Browning after reading my earlier posting.

As to the model itself, I am most impressed !

If I was pushed to make comment as regards to how accurate the model is I would have to admit that we seemed to have more room in the hull of the tank than the model shows but, let's face it I only have my memory to rely on and we are talking about 64 years ago

Best regards and well done that man !

Ron

[Dutchy]

Thanks for the kind words Ron.
I have to admit, the interior was down to quite a bit of guesswork based loosely on a pic of an add-on kit you can get for the standard model. As the add-on cost more than the kit itself I thought I'd make my own from scratch.

[Haridimos]

Jumped here from the sister thread M3 Stuart recce / command pics / info required when I remembered that I had a photo of a Stuart mk 6 Gun towing conversion,
at the AFTER THE BATTLE magazine #37 issue.

The photo shows a Stuart VI at Portsmouth scrapyard ca 1982.