CMP Umbau-Wagen

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From Paul Hocking's MVT Windscreen articles "German WWII Beute-Fahrzeuge and Umbau-Wagen (Britisch)":

One can basically split German ownership of captured vehicles into two categories. The category I and II titles that I use to describe the two main levels of German activity with captured vehicles are of my own invention. The Germans of course used their own words:
- Beute-Fahrzeuge, "booty" or "loot" vehicle, pretty much my Category I: where the vehicles have been literally picked up of the battlefield, maybe some crosses applied, are immediately reused and very likely discarded again within a short time;
- also Cat II and Umbau-Wagen, "rebuilt" vehicle, my Category II: where captured vehicles are properly incorporated into the German forces, this usually includes a full overhaul and repaint to German colours, the Notek light system added, WH, WL, WM or SS registration added with either the body left as it was, partly modified or fully modified from the scuttle rearwards. Most likely German service and parts books were issued for these vehicles. Category II work needs sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile and plenty of time to accomplish.
The only photos of Category II vehicles that I have are all in the Windscreen Magazine Issue 90, page 56, which shows Canadian C15 GS trucks, some have small body mods and some have major conversions.

Here's a nice example of an F15 Umbau-Wagen with the body left as it was, most likely repainted to German colours, the Notek light system added and WL (Wehrmacht Luftwaffe) registration added (source).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Another picture, found on the Axis History Forum. Writing on the back suggests this vehicle was left behind in Russia in 1943.

Taking a closer look at this picture, I noted it is in use as a radio truck or Fernsprech- bzw. Funk-Kraftwagen (Kfz. 16). The rear boot apparently has a fold down hatch instead of a fold-up hatch or two hatches opening the the left and right as on some other German trucks.

Also, the headlights have been replaced by more conventional ones (could they be the same as the ones on the Chev C8 in Australia )

[Keith Webb]

Here's one from the 1970s... although mounted differently and a slightly different shape, they look to be borrowed from another make.

http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/F60L/Waynef60l_1.jpg

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's a couple of pix I came up with off a Polish site.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I downloaded a book titled German Trucks and Cars in WW2 - Ford at War and came across this page.

[cletrac (RIP)]

These are from the same book and should fit in this thread. Those Carden Loyd carriers sure underwent major changes! How many would the Germans have captured anyway? To make 3000 of these halftracks they must have started reproducing the track assemblies somewhere along the line.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi David

Can you send me a high res version of these latest pictures.... particularly the staff car version so I can study them by enlarging the details.

Will send you my email by PM

Thanks

[cletrac (RIP)]

Bob, I emailed you the page.
Here's the review of the CMP Umbau model translated to English (sort of anyway)
CMP Umbau model

[Bob Carriere]

Hi David

Man that translation is really sketchy..... but every little bit helps.... I have collected every picture from MLU......

I do consider doing a full size replica of a captured vehicle..... should be fairly straight forward..... historical accuracy should not be an issue as so many details are left to the imagination and what was available at the time.

I have a few Cab 11/12 to draw parts from but it will have to be a Chev.... and possibly with an auto tranny for easier driving..... some Chev 6 combination....stricly a fun machine.

Thanks for your help......

[cletrac (RIP)]

Bob.
One of these would make a cool toy all right! I'm thinking of building one from a Cab 11 F15A. I don't know what their coach work would have been like but it looks like you could use square tubing the same size as the CMP door thickness for framework and spot weld sheet metal to it. Screw the inside panels on so you have access to the door handle mechanisms.
Notice on that model they have the endgate hinged from the top but in this side view it folds down to use as a table (just like a 'real' endgate.) Also notice on this pic that the bottom of the added on rear cab doesn't line up with the bottom of the CMP cab. You might figure out why when you delve a little deeper in the project. Also notice that some have CMP headlights while others have the German ones; some have the push bar while others don't and some use CMP bumpers while others have a mount that lowers the bumper and use a different bumper.
I really think that most of the details are covered in the posted pics. The pic with the 2 Umbaus is from another forum and hasn't been posted here before. On that side view pic I removed the overwriting plus the radio and rifles just for clarity's sake. Gotta love Photoshop!

[Bob Carriere]

I agree with you David that the body panels would be easy enough to replicate. From past experience on home made dune buggy bodies a solid frame work with spot welded panels would be easy...but spray on some insulation foam inside the body work ...otherwise the sheet metal becomes like the skin on a drum and booms like crazy...... Heck they never even bothered removing the back panel to the cab.... just built right on to it.

Love the Hummer like back section with the spare on top and the drop down picnic table.......

I would use after market flat lens repro lamps for the headlights and repro Notek lamps are available from the Kubel replicar dealers in the states.... two old German rifles in the holders and you are ready for a cruise.

The canvas top should be easy to replicate as well although driving open would be more fun..... already have a full nos set of 900x16 Michelin square block pattern.....

I would like to keep the 4X4 set up if I can fit a short auto tranny....some models for vans have a very short tailshaft tube..... would favor the Chev 6 for ease of installation in the tight engine compartment.

All you need is the imagination......

........ and with imagination you never grow old.......

Bob

[Owen Evans]

Picked this up the other day, which is the first shot I've seen of the rear end.

P.S. My first attempt at posting a picture, so fingers crossed.

Owen.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Owen

Very nice and sharp focus. Any opinion on what the overall color is???

Best detailed picture of the rear that I have seen so far. Good idea of how the roof structure was done including the snaps. The rear door seems to be set up as a table with the two legs folded. Running boards and fuel tank looks more like a HUP tank with the rear filler neck...... could use some sheet metal plate to protect the tank from nailed boots.

Wondering if there are not more pictures of the Umbau floating around.....

Thanks again.

Bob C

Message to Robert M....... see how short the guy is...... door top is only shoulder height!!!

[r.morrison]

Mein Gott Roberto .....jew are right again! Und such tiny feet. Such a lucky boy.....Robert

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Running boards and fuel tank looks more like a HUP tank with the rear filler neck.

Message to Robert M....... see how short the guy is...... door top is only shoulder height!!!

Agreed that the tanks have fillers similar to HUP but since the front end sheet metal seems to be monkey face (and no HUP were monkey face) and most CMP captured would also have been pre-HUP, it seems unlikely they would have had enough captured HUP tanks to have been able to simply swap them on. They must have seen the same kind of access problem the HUP designers did and just come up with a similar solution. We have seen tanks where the original filler hole was soldered closed and an new filler neck added, so they could have done the same to avoid making complete new tanks. But, if you are making complete new rear bodywork to integrate to an existing cab, why not make new tanks to address the issue of the existing filler being either under the bodywork or blocking your door? You find the fuel filler on you C15A awkward to use and the same tank under Umbau-Wagen bodywork would have been worse.

When using the truck to scale the man, where does your truck come to on you? If the man were truly short, the truck would tower over him but if he is a giant, it might only reach his waist... Many of the earlier photos look to be 2 WD rather than 4WD which would make the truck lower and the man correspondingly smaller....

[Bob Carriere]

...enough of the front hub can be seen, once enlarged, between the soldiers legs......still looks short and stocky to me.

Cheers

[Owen Evans]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

......still looks short and stocky to me.

Cheers

Based on the front rim being 16 inches, I reckon he's a maximum of 5 foot, 4 inches. Probably less.

Has anyone in the know figured out the unit markings yet? I suspect german army (based on the WH number plate), but the 'V' has me beat.

Owen.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Owen Evans

Picked this up the other day, which is the first shot I've seen of the rear end.

P.S. My first attempt at posting a picture, so fingers crossed.

Nice find Owen, thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Any opinion on what the overall color is???

Best detailed picture of the rear that I have seen so far. Good idea of how the roof structure was done including the snaps. The rear door seems to be set up as a table with the two legs folded.

As to the colour, I am not opening a can of worms, but.... from what I know: if regulations were followed, it should be painted in Dunkelgrau Nr. 46, today referred to as RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau.

As for the folding roof, it seems they used a standard type as used on other German designs. While the body isn't exactly the same as the other Einheits-PKW, it was clearly patterned on it to fit in their classification system.

[Ganmain Tony]

Originally Posted by Owen Evans

Has anyone in the know figured out the unit markings yet? I suspect german army (based on the WH number plate), but the 'V' has me beat.

Owen.

I hope someone has an answer to that question as well Owen.

Chaps.. what do you think the paint scheme is in the picture with the two kids sitting in the back?


Be a terrific project to do..

[RichCam]

Can someone out there check through their library to see if there is a copy of Ford im Kriege that you might want to sell? I would like to create a SdkFz15 from a 1941 F-15A and the documentation in the book by Reinhard Frank would be helpful.

[James P]

https://www.ebay.de/itm/294229664283...gAAOSwvFxgyfz5

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I’ll have to check my copy but IIRC it doesn’t have more information than what can be found in this thread on here: CMP Umbauwagen

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Rolf S. Ask

Found these two photos on e-bay.
The first one I did not reach up on on the price, but have put in a fearly high bid on the second photo. Hopefully I get this photo!!
So if no one else here on the forum makes a bid and I get it, it will be shared in high resolution to those needing it...
And the fram just stand outside my garage would just love such a body....

Here’s a larger version of one of these photos:

[RichCam]

Hello Hanno,
Thanks for the link, I have tried to research more information about the F-15A Umbauwagen version from this thread. In particular, I am looking for dimensional information regarding the body and any information regarding the soft cover retractable roof. Does Mr. Frank list any footnotes with regards to his section of the SdKfz.15?
Cheers, Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Richard,

All that is in Mr. Frank’s book can be found in posts #11 (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...5398#post15398), 18 and 19 (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...1752#post21752) in the CMP Umbauwagen thread. That thread has the most complete info available known to me - believe me, I have looked wide and far. What is good about the sketches is that they give you the basic body dimensions. I reckon the rest can be gleaned from studying the available photos and measuring up the F15 chassis.

Note: the original was based on a Cab 11 F15 4x2, not an F15A. For the general construction method (sheet metal over wooden frame) you would best have a close look at the other German Kfz.15’s. Same for the folding hood.

Many have pondered over and planned for it; I hope someone like you recreates this interesting conversion one day!

[m606paz]

Free download https://cupdf.com/download/waffen-ar...ford-im-kriege

[RichCam]

Thank you very much Mariano. The download was successful and I appreciate you posting the link. Regards, Richard

[RichCam]

Thank you Hanno for the F-15 vs F-15A clarification. It is quite obvious once I look at the pictures of the front axle. For my project, I will have to add the "a" to SdkFz15. The 4 wheel capability might just keep it out of the mud. Cheers, Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Rich, I reckon the German Army would have loved to capture some more 4x4's for use in the mud on the Eastern front. It would make a nice "what if" vehicle.

PS: threads now merged to keep all related info together

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Taking a closer look at this picture, I noted it is in use as a radio truck or Fernsprech- bzw. Funk-Kraftwagen (Kfz. 16). The rear boot apparently has a fold down hatch instead of a fold-up hatch or two hatches opening the the left and right as on some other German trucks.

Here's a better rear view of the body. It indeed has a fold-down rear hatch to serve as a radio table: