Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry jeep?

[NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)]

Hi

My uncle was in the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in korean war !

Does anyone have a pic of the united color for the jeep i want to make my M38 like that


Thx

Eric

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)

Hi

My uncle was in the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in korean war !

Does anyone have a pic of the united color for the jeep i want to make my M38 like that

Hi Eric;

If you mean the Arm of Service marking, for all three battalions of the PPCLI, it was the figures '61' in white on a green square background (see example below).

Cheers

[NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)]

Hi

Yes that what i mean Arm of Service marking for the PPCLI any pic for a korean jeep

thx

Eric

[Dan Martel]

Mark,

While I'm sure you're correct I'm wondering why the PPCLI were allocated the AoS '61' on a green square?

The six-one on green is the AoS for the following;
1) the senior infantry battalion of an infantry brigade assigned to an armoured division,
2) the second infantry battalion of the second infantry brigade assigned to an infantry division, or
3) the second parachute battalion of the second parachute brigade assigned to an airborne division.

I don't see any of the above applying to the PPCLI while in Korea. The AoS for battalions of an independent infantry brigade were '55', '56' and '57' in white on a red square in which case the RCR would have been '55', the Patricias '56' and the Vandoos '57'.

So, how did the PPCLI end up permanently green?

Dan.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

So, how did the PPCLI end up permanently green?

Hi Dan;

They were all green ...

The Royal Canadian Regiment (all three battalions): AoS serial - '60' in white on a green background
(2 RCR, 1 RCR and 3 RCR)

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (all three battalions): AoS serial - '61' in white on a green background
(2 PPCLI , 1 PPCLI and 3 PPCLI )

Royal 22e Regiment (all three battalions): AoS serial - '62' in white on a green background
(2 R22eR, 1 R22eR and 3 R22eR)

The 1st Commonwealth Division had three infantry brigades:-
- British - senior brigade
- Canadian - intermediate brigade
- Commonwealth - junior brigade

Cheers

[NORTH-SHORE(CANADA)]

Hi

All good stuf but any pic how to put this on my jeep???


thx

Eric

[Ed Storey]

The question is, did the PPCLI use M38s in Korea or did they only have WWII vintage US supplied Jeeps?

[JackM]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

The 1st Commonwealth Division had three infantry brigades:-
- British - senior brigade
- Canadian - intermediate brigade
- Commonwealth - junior brigade

Mark,

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I've never heard of brigades being graded senior, intermediate and junior. In fact, the 27th Commonwealth Brigade (2PPCLI, 3 RAR and 1 Middlesex and thankfully, some attached US tanks at Kapyong), as the precursor to the Commonwealth Division, had been in action for almost 12 months before the Division was created.

It would seem odd that they would have been relegated to 'junior' status, upon formation of the Division.

Once the Division was formed, from a numerical point of view, the status would have been Canadians (25 Bde), Commonwealth Bde (28 Bde) and British (29 Bde)

I'd be quite surprised if the Division Comd did not do all he possibly could, to avoid such divisive titles.

Jack

[Tony Smith]

Jack, the terms "Senior" or "Junior" are not intended to imply any sort of ranking or preference, or to promote divisiveness, but is merely a phrase used within the Order of Battle system to arrange units in an order, units that are in all other respects (ie: prestige, efficiency, or duties) completely equal. The same system was (and still is) used in Aust to describe units in any field organisation.

[JackM]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Jack, the terms "Senior" or "Junior" are not intended to imply any sort of ranking or preference, or to promote divisiveness, but is merely a phrase used within the Order of Battle system to arrange units in an order, units that are in all other respects (ie: prestige, efficiency, or duties) completely equal. The same system was (and still is) used in Aust to describe units in any field organisation.

Thanks Tony - I served almost three decades in the ARA, so I'm familiar with the meaning of Service and Corps precedence, to which I think you refer when talking about the ORBAT.

Nonetheless, I have never heard the terms Senior, Intermediate and Junior, used in relation to brigades (always comprised of a number of different corps). I still think that, especially when dealing with different nationalities (even given they are Commonwealth), any notion of inequality would be best avoided.

It could simply be Canadian terminology without any of the nuances I attach to these gradings - I'm always keen to extend my knowledge, as to how our allies work.

Hopefully the original question posed by Eric has been answered and this diversion can be tolerated.


Jack

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

The question is, did the PPCLI use M38s in Korea or did they only have WWII vintage US supplied Jeeps?

I can't speak of PPCLI useage, but I did watch some lengthy film footage a few years back of the RCHA's deployment to and at Korea. Early in the film, it was all WW2 vintage jeeps. Towards the end of the film, it was M38A1s. Lots of colour on them, of course, with all the various unit and brigade markings which were the norm in the 50s.

Surely there must be photos in the Cdn archives of vehicles in Korea. I recall one showing 2VP guys using a M100 (or possibly a WWII vintage) trailer as a makeshift bathtub.
Below is a photo of a young fellow 2VP adopted: Little Joe. Jeep in the background is a MB/GPW. This is a good source of Korean photos, although most of them seem to be the Cdn archives examples: www.kvacanada.com

[Dan Martel]

Gentlemen,

Like JackM stated I don't want to hijack this thread away from Eric but I think I have the answer as to why the 25th CIB in Korea used green for their AoS.

Now as was stated the Canadian brigade was in Korea for quite some time before the Commonwealth Division was formed. So the question becomes; why would the 25th CIB have used a green AoS when green was the designator for the second (or intermediate) brigade of a division? As an independent formation why wouldn't the brigade have used a red AoS which was the correct designator for an independent brigade (and also for the senior brigade of a division)?

I think the answer lies in the organization of the Canadian Army at the time. By the beginning of 1950 the regular units of the Army had already been organized into the Mobile Striking Force (MSF). Prior to being designated as the MSF the active force units of the Army were part of a formation called the Active Force Brigade Group. The AFBG had been formed in 1946 and originally called the 23rd Infantry Brigade Group (the militia reorganization had included the 1st to 22nd brigades). It is quite possible that the units of the 23rd IBG / AFBG / MSF had been using the red AoS from 1946 to the summer of 1950 when the Canadian Army Korean force was authorized. As the second brigade in the active force, the decision may have been to have the infantry battalions use a green AoS to distinguish them from the MSF units. This would explain why 2 PPCLI would have been using green in Korea well before the formation of the Commonwealth Division. The GOC of the division upon its formation probably left the brigade's markings as they were seeing that they already conformed to the established tables for an intermediate brigade in an infantry division.

Unfortunately I have yet to find any documentation to prove this theory to be valid. I'm open to any suggestions or rebuttal.

Now as to the terms senior brigade, intermediate (or second) brigade and junior brigade, I think I can clear this up as well. This only applied to allocating the AoS designators within an armoured, infantry or airborne division using the British system of formation organization. In the infantry divisions the senior brigade's battalions were allocated red squares, the second brigade's used green squares and the battalions of the junior brigade used brown. The airborne division used the same system with the exception that the airlanding brigade was the division's junior brigade even if it's number was lower than the parachute brigades. The armoured division, with only two brigades, used red for the armoured units and green for the infantry. Determining the order of brigades was merely a matter of which brigade had the lower number being first etc (except for the airlanding brigade in the airborne division). I suspect senior, intermediate and junior were used because the British Army numbered it's infantry brigades and to begin calling a division's brigades either first, second or third, would have become confusing to all concerned.

I'm sure that these terms are all redundant now with all of the changes that have taken place in the use of tactical markings on vehicles.

And now, back to the jeeps.
__________________________________

Cheers, Dan.