WTB: FN Cdn EX1 items

[rob love]

I finally got an EX-1 rifle home that I had bought at auction several months ago. These were the experimental FNs used in trials by Canada in the early 50s, and numbered less than 2000 of both the EX1 and EX2 examples.

Once the Cdn C1A1 was adopted, these were retained in service as either cadet drill purpose rifles, or as rifles issued by the airborne school for jumping.

Their fate was sealed around 2000 when they were smelted, with small numbers offered first to military museums. There are around 10 or so legally registered in Canada. I had to have mine deactivated since I am not grandfathered for this class of rifle.

Anyway, I need an EX1 magazine and a EX1 buttstock. If anyone has either of these tucked away, and you don't expect to be picking up an EX rifle anytime soon, please give me a shout and we'll see if something can be worked out.

Thanks

[mike mckinley]

hello rob

the timing of this post is uncanny. the electrician i had here last week was telling me that he was a part of the user trials of the fn way back. he must have been talking about the ex-1. he said that during the user trials, the fn would wear out it's barrel between 600 and 800 rounds. he also said that the only thing the fn had over the enfield was the number of rounds it could expell. i have always thought of the fn as one of the best rifles of it's time, but have never seen a picture of the ex1. could you post a picture ?

cheers!!
mike

[rob love]

Always happy to show off my toys. Surprising about the claim of wearing barrels out in less than 100 rounds, unless that was a result of the full auto fire on such a light barrel.




The EX series were bought for user trials at the same time that Britain bought the X8 (same gun, different designation). There were two variations, the EX1 with it's standard type sight, and the EX2, with the optical sight. Some books say there were 1000 each of the EX1 and EX2 while elsewhere it has been suggested that the numbers were approx 1700 for the EX1 and 300 for the EX2.

The rifles were bought directly from FN in Belgium. There ended up being a steering committee between Canada, Great Britain and Australia to achieve a standardization between the participating countries. The US was also expected to go with the FN, but instead went with the M14.

Production of the C1 rifle was started by Canadian Arsenals Ltd (which was the renamed Small Arms Limited, known to most as "Long Branch") in 1955/56 time period. Within a few years, problems were discovered with firing pins getting stuck and causing full auto or out of battery firing. This was cured with a two part firing pin. At the same time, the carrying handle was replaced with a plastic one and the rifle re-designated C1A1.

I have deacts of the C1A1, the C2A1, and the EX1. Now the quest begins to find an EX2.

[mike mckinley]

that sir is one beautiful piece of history!! personally, with no hope of ever finding a c1, opted for an indian 1a1 model which has been tastefully deactivated. i have been slowly collecting the pieces to "canadianize" it. this is not for the purpose of passing it off as a c1, but rather to try, as close as possible, to represent what one would have looked like. so far i have managed to get the canadian bayonet, blank firing device, bolt cover, speed loader, sling, cleaning kit, and the simfire device. kudos for trying to preserve a very important, and rare piece of canadian military history

[rob love]

Collector's source was selling the C1A1s for $750, but that was almost 8 years back...they are long out of stock now. However, there are hundreds of the C1s in private hands here in Canada. The market for these prohibited guns is ever dwindling as the gun control hassles along with the aging owners diminishes the potential buyers.

Prices on the C1s has gone up in the last few years, but I predict that will again spiral downward in a few more years unless some advance is made in the gun restrictions. Currently, owners of these guns are not allowed to take them to a range to shoot them.

[Lynn Eades]

I take it that these are semi auto as apposed to full auto.

[rob love]

The EX series of rifles were originally selective fire. The army pinned the change levers after user trials and the steering committee decided that the guns were not good as full auto. The C1 rifles were all semi automatic. There was a variation on that with the C1D (later C1A1D) which was intended for naval boarding parties. It had the automatic change lever and was selective fire. There was also the C2 rifle, which was the LMG for the section. It featured a heavier barrel, bipod, 30 round magazine, and selective fire change lever. Seems like everyone ended up burning their hand on those naked barrels at one point.

Here in Canada the gun has to be grandfathered (in this case, registered back around 92) and the owner must be also grandfathered (in this case continuously owned a converted auto in this classs since 92). I do not fall into that class, and as well this gun had not been registered, so it is now deactivated.

The guys who do own the full auto and semi auto guns here in Canada cannot get the permits to take them to the range to shoot anymore.

[Lynn Eades]

Your C1 looks like our L1A1(made in Lithgow Australia for N.Z.) your fore wood is the same pattern as the first L1A1's. the difference looks to be that our L1A1's have a more up and down pistol grip, whereas the C1 appears to have the more sloping style of a FAL.
It is highly illegal for anyone in New Zealand (other than the military) to fire a full auto, but some people have licences to own them as collectors items, (under strict conditions)
The N.Z. army also had a heavy barrelled version in selective fire as a section LMG. Sounds very similar to the Canadian version.

[rob love]

Both those photos are actually of the EX1. Here are some photos of my C1A1 and C2A1:





I have seen a number of the NZ marked Sterlings make it onto the Cdn market, along with NZ no8 rifles and, of course, NZ marked no4s. But for some reason the NZ FNs did not make it into our market. When were they phased out of service? It may well be that they got released after the FNs became prohibited in this country.

The Canadian and the Australian FNs are very similar. There are rumours that the Canadian Arsenals Limited made some of the barrels and parts for the Australian Heavy Barrel FN, although I think I saw somewhere that this was not true. Our early C2 top covers ended up going to Australia and (with some modification) used on the Australian HB FN.
I need one of those top covers for my collection, and of course, since they were almost all exported, they are very hard to find here.

[Rob Beale]

I think they were phased out about 1990 or so. We hardly ever saw the heavy barrelled version, as they seemed to be used by units like RNZE. We had GPMG as section auto till the mid 80's when there was a problem and they were withdrawn from Infantry sections, to be replaced by Bren LMG in .303! I used to haul the ammo crates out of the rubbish trailer after shoots.

When the SLR went, we used M16A1 exclusively for a while, till the trials for a replacement selected the Steyr AUG. Made in OZ, but different to theirs in the safety catch arrangement. I recall the NZ safety catch stuck out towards your belly while you walked, and would often get knocked from Safe to semi while you walked!

I exercised with a platoon from Townsville and looked at their steyrs, but don't recall the differences now.

Incidentally, we heard from School of Infantry staff who conducted the trialls that many preferred the Canadian M16A2, which had a longer barrel life than the US version they trialled. Politics ruled and they went with the Steyr.

Back to topic...I still prefer the feel of the SLR, so well done on your preservation of important history.
Rob
ex RNZIR

[rob love]

By GPMG, do you mean a M1919 Browning? Were they in the A4 configuration, or with the bipod/carry handle A6 style? Either way, that's one heavy gun to be hauling around.

The GPMG (Browning) was generally phased out in the early 90s here in Canada, and replaced with the FN MAG. Mind you, I was still being issued the Browning here in Shilo for the top of the M113A2 until 1997. I think we were one of the last units to still be using them.

[Rob Beale]

In NZ we used the FN MAG in L7A1 version, although our troops in Vietnam carried the M60. The FN has been reissued for many years since their temporary withdrawl I mentioned, but mainly for SFMG use in Infantry Support Companies. The 50 cal Browning has made a comeback here too

The replacement weapon for section use was the C9 or FN Minimi. I see that has many names too around the world. They are already talking about replacement though!

I feel priviliged to have used the Bren

Rob

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally Posted by rob love

The EX series of rifles were originally selective fire. The army pinned the change levers after user trials and the steering committee decided that the guns were not good as full auto. The C1 rifles were all semi automatic. There was a variation on that with the C1D (later C1A1D) which was intended for naval boarding parties. It had the automatic change lever and was selective fire. There was also the C2 rifle, which was the LMG for the section. It featured a heavier barrel, bipod, 30 round magazine, and selective fire change lever. Seems like everyone ended up burning their hand on those naked barrels at one point.

Here in Canada the gun has to be grandfathered (in this case, registered back around 92) and the owner must be also grandfathered (in this case continuously owned a converted auto in this classs since 92). I do not fall into that class, and as well this gun had not been registered, so it is now deactivated.

The guys who do own the full auto and semi auto guns here in Canada cannot get the permits to take them to the range to shoot anymore.

Rob:

You didn't make mention of the FN C1A2...the 8L series, last of production, which had three mods which CAL suggested to DND that it have its own separate NSN. Didn't happen of course...lots of confusion with Wpns Tech and Bin Rats.

I've traced mine from manufacture to OPP in Englehart, to UK for FTR, then back to Canada.

Lovely piece of kit!

[rob love]

C1A2 nomenclature was not adopted. The nickname "8L" series is usually applied to those rifles, o fwhich around 5000 were made. My C1A1 is also from the OPP lot, which collectors source brought in to the country. If I recall, my rifle was from the Missauga detachment. I have been keeping my eyes open for a non-8L C1.

[EDDIE]

HELLO, ANYONE KNOW THE VALUE OF AN ISHAPORE FN RIFLE HERE IN CANADA? THANKS. EDDIE.

[charlie fitton]

I remember well the EX's from jump school, man were they beat up. More than a few parts fell off mine.

We were one of the last units to get the C7's (even though they are made here in our hometown) - what a difference from the C1. I prefferred the iron sights, but maybe that's because bi-focals and optics don't mix well.

A few years back I had the chance to shoot a C2 in a section competition for re-enactment units. Ser no was 0La002.

I broke it.

The owner didn't mind much though - said he'd be welding it up soon anyway.

[Pete Z]

Originally Posted by EDDIE

HELLO, ANYONE KNOW THE VALUE OF AN ISHAPORE FN RIFLE HERE IN CANADA? THANKS. EDDIE.

Dewat Ishy FN's generally sell for anywhere between $300 to $400. L1A1's command a higher price, something in the order of $500 - $600, and C1A1's (if you can find one) go for more than that. I am always shopping for a cheaper dewat Indian FN to tart up as a C1A1 for display in my M38A1 (whenever I get it done). I'd love to get a real C1A1, but I can't justify the cost to just have it rattling around in my jeep, plus I would always be worried about someone stealing it.

BTW Rob, very nice collection!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Log on to canadiangunnutz dot com and start prowling. There are 59,000 members on that forum. Someone will have one for sale. Any seller will have to have it deactivated before shipping. Expect to pay for that on top of the purchase.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

Here are some pictures of my own little collection...regards malcolm

[malcolm erik bogaert]

pictures enclosed

[malcolm erik bogaert]

dont know whats happened......these show my Colt M16 and Walther pistol...will keep trying!cheers malcolm

[malcolm erik bogaert]

here we go again! regards malcolm

[mike mckinley]

that's an hk p2a1 flare pistol correct? saw one of those forsale not long ago...but much too large for 12ga flares. nice collection

[malcolm erik bogaert]

Mike yes H & K so good quality.....they sale here for approx £50.00. and come with a beautiful leather holster and belt that must be worth that alone!cheers malcolm