LP2A found and recovered

[Justin Pollard]

another pic,just for interest.

[RichardT10829]

justin......."Your Great"..... enough said

[Justin Pollard]

Thanks for that Richard,
I hope to post some more progress pics tomorrow night to!.

Justin.

[Justin Pollard]

Hello All,
A bit more progress today,front undercoated,
also removed the other middle bogie assy,and both front idler wheels.

Justin.

[ron]

Hi Justin,
I have just checked my Met Gas carrier its number is 434, and the front towing eye is stamped 415, and on the front glacis plate there is 415,its been done with a small angle grider I would say,it seems they did it when the carriers were being assembled?? may someone else out there with a Met gas carrier could check if they also have this number carved into the glacis plate that also matches the tow eye number , Regards Ron

[JackM]

Ron,

I was recently at the War Memorial and over a couple of days, scrolled through the vehicle record books (27 of them), which allegedly contain the records of all vehicles taken on charge by the Army until around about the 1980s.

Just did a check of the record book pages I photographed and have attached the page relating to Carrier (hull #) 434. Don't know what if anything, you might make of the red ink entries on the left, but at least you can verify your engine #.

It would appear from the entry on the left of the right hand page that your carrier sailed for the Middle East on the "Tarandantes", in July 1941. If that is correct, I guess that makes it one of the few LP2As that were sent to the Middle East - and returned.


Jack

[Justin Pollard]

No worries Ron,
we,ll see what other people have to,i would say your right about using an angle grinder as it seems a very permanent mark.

JackM,would there be my carrier hull numbers in any of the pages you photographed?.


Justin.

[JackM]

Justin,

I'll have a look and get back to you.


Jack

[ron]

Hello Jack, Many thanks for the information on my Met gas carrier,I found it very interesting, it will interesting to see if you can find anything on Justins Met gas carrier.As a matter of interest I once owned South Aust rail carrier hull number 2300, that had come back from Syria, the reason I know this to be a fact was I met the man who drove it over there. I bought it about 20 years ago in the mountains behind the Gold coast thanks again for the information, regards Ron

[Justin Pollard]

Originally Posted by JackM

Justin,

I'll have a look and get back to you.


Jack

Thanks heaps for that Jack.


Regards
Justin.

[JackM]

Hi Ron & Justin,

I've looked through the photos (234 of them) I took of the vehicle record books that were of interest to me and although I've got a lot of the carriers, I guess I didn't get them all - I can't find any record of 2753.

I did however find 2300. It doesn't have any overseas markings on the page for this carrier and given its likely date of production, it may have been a little late in the War for this carrier to have gone overseas with any of the Middle East divisions, but who knows ?



Jack

[Justin Pollard]

Thanks for looking Jack,
much appreciated.
if you get a chance could you see if 1846 and 1902 are in there?,i,m trying to find the rego numbers of them.

Regards
Justin.

[JackM]

Justin,

My filing system could do with some refinement - while I found Hull # 1846, I can't yet find 1902. I'll let my brain recover from scrolling numbers and have another look later on. It is possible that 1902 is on one of the pages I didn't photograph.

Nonetheless, 1846 is attached below - doesn't provide much info apart from an ARN (which might possibly have doubled as a T number) and the original engine # .



Jack

[Justin Pollard]

Top work Jack,
Thanks very much for looking.
I,m having a little bit of trouble making out the hull number list,i think 1846 is ARN 25669.is that right?.
sorry to be a pest!.

Thanks again for your efforts.


Regards
Justin.

[JackM]

Justin,

PM me your email address and I'll send you an enlarged copy that's easier to read.


Jack

P.S. I think that the stamped numbers on these record pages are what we now regard as the ARN, but it may well have been used as the identifying number (a "T" number) prior to standardising on the Hull #.

If you have a copy of Mike Cecil's book on the Carrier evolution, he explains it quite well.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by JackM

P.S. I think that the stamped numbers on these record pages are what we now regard as the ARN, but it may well have been used as the identifying number (a "T" number) prior to standardising on the Hull #.

AWM books 126-01 through to 126-04 carry the reg no issued solely to the AIF, and these will show the "T" numbers. AMF Carriers didn't get "T" numbers and were issued "C" numbers, which evolved into the ARN. Not all Aust carriers will have been issued "T" numbers, and some never got "C"/ARNs, just hull numbers. The "C"/ARN records are in AWM 126-05 to 126-27, and where a carrier had previously been issued a AIF "T" no, there will be a cross reference and date. If a Carrier was a late production and only got a hull number (eg 4000-5000 hull numbers, Aust 2pdr Carriers, etc), it won't appear ANYWHERE in the AWM 126 series books.

[JackM]

Thanks Tony - I was wondering why I had so few pics of the higher hull #s. The hull #s of the carrier records I photographed, stop somewhere in the range 2000-3000.

I guess it also explains why the fabled mortar carriers are not there.



Jack

[ron]

Hi Jack, great stuff mate and many thanks for sharing the information that you have managed to get, its this sort of thing that makes our hobby all the more interesting and the fact that you are all the more willing to share and not to keep it all to your self, well done mate,
Regards Ron

[Roddy de Normann]

Jack -

I have been attempting to look at all T-numbers and their national derivitives - especially the three series in Australia and the later UK (ZR & ZT) & S African U series. Shane Lovell quite rightly advised me I was on a hiding to nothing, especially as it would be v difficult to get access to the Rego Books. I am attempting to match UK T number with AIF/AFM, C Series and VRN Series where they match. I have had some interesting hits, especially where one finds the correlation to issue fm UK and their subsequent imports into Australia.

To that end, I was wondering if it would be possible to have access to your pics from those books ? I would be delighted to send on the work I have done to date. If you send me your e-mail address (mine is Roddy1011@yahoo.co.uk) I can send it on. Ultimately, we could then merge our efforts and post it all back here...

Look forward to possible hearing from you

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

I am attempting to match UK T number with AIF/AFM, C Series and VRN Series where they match. I have had some interesting hits, especially where one finds the correlation to issue fm UK and their subsequent imports into Australia.

Roddy

I didn't think there would be any matches, what hits have you had? The records of ex-WD softskin vehicles transferred/bought by the AIF in North Africa show the original WD class and numbers just prefixed by AIF.

There are plenty of instances of Ex-British refugee vehicles from Malaya or Singapore being issued with C numbers/ARNs but retaining their WD numbers [url=http://orbit.dnsrouter.com/~mlu/forums/showthread.php?t=7759&page=2(Such as these FGTs)[/url], perhaps due to some legal reason, but I have not yet seen any evidence that the UK Carriers in Australia received an ARN, just retained their WD number. As the C numbers/ARN system was not used for Aust carriers much after the 2nd half of '42 (by which time, I would have thought the "Refugee" supply would have dried up anyway), in leiu of a hull serial number, they seem to have just kept the WD T number.

[Roddy de Normann]

Tony -

You are of course correct as far as the carriers are concerned. Lt Tanks and various other bits & bobs I believe were incorporated. Having said that, do we know how many LP2As etc were left behind in the ME ? Could an AIF numbered veh have been incorporated into the UK system ?

I was very interested to see you say that Rego Books 1 to 4 were solely AIF Nos. What is the no. span therefore ? I was always under the impression that AIF & AMF could be issued side-by-side ? For instance, did the Light Horse Regiments receive AIF numbered vehicles ? Also, if a veh went from an AIF to AMF unit, did the number change to reflect this ? Or had the C System/Hull Numbering come in by then.

I have trawled through any number of the Infantry War Diaries on line, but with very little success in tracking down numbers. The Armoured Regiments have been more forthcoming. Again, thanks to Shane, I do have listings of some Armoured Regiment carriers transfered to either LH or MMG Bns.

I would be delighted to send you what I have if you are interested. Send me your e-mail to mine posted above on my initial request to Jack and I will do so.

Again, many thanks for your insights

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood that you had found some connections with UK T nos and AIF T nos.

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

I was very interested to see you say that Rego Books 1 to 4 were solely AIF Nos. What is the no. span therefore ?

The AWM files are:
AWM 126~01 vol: AIF '1 ~~ 6112' pre WW1, WW1, post WW1, WW2.
AWM 126~02 vol: AIF '6113 ~~ 12325' WW2.
AWM 126~03 vol: AIF '12326 ~~ 18867' WW2.
AWM 126~04 vol: AIF '18868 ~~ 25974' WW2.
AWM 126~05 vol: '00001 ~~ 13807' 1917~1960
AWM 126~06 vol: '13808 ~~ 20076' 1938~1954
AWM 126~07 vol: '20077 ~~ 26346' 1938~1960
AWM 126~08 vol: '26347 ~~ 32616' 1938~1962
AWM 126~09 vol: '32617 ~~ 40471' 1938~1948
AWM 126~10 vol: '40472 ~~ 48358' 1942~1964
AWM 126~11 vol: '48359 ~~ 59264' 1942~1977
AWM 126~12 vol: '59265 ~~ 66912' 1942~1969
AWM 126~13 vol: '66913 ~~ 74560' 1943~1973
AWM 126~14 vol: '74561 ~~ 82208' 1942~1978
AWM 126~15 vol: '82209 ~~ 89842' 1942~1974
AWM 126~16 vol: '89843 ~~ 97415' 1944~1982
AWM 126~17 vol: '97416 ~~ 105866' 1938~1990
AWM 126~18 vol: '105-867 ~~ 114-437' 1938~1992
AWM 126~19 vol: '114-438 ~~ 122-646' 1926~1989
AWM 126~20 vol: '122-647 ~~ 132-320' 1938~1983
AWM 126~21 vol: '132-321 ~~ 140-600' 1942~1990
AWM 126~22 vol: '140-601 ~~ 150-896' 1942~1990
AWM 126~23 vol: '150-897 ~~ 159-509' 1942~1993
AWM 126~24 vol: '159-510 ~~ 168-121' 1941~1980
AWM 126~25 vol: '168-122 ~~ 177-970' 1945~1990
AWM 126~26 vol: '177-971 ~~ 187-538' 1945~1990
AWM 126~27 vol: Various Misc~~ 1954~1966 Armour, Aircraft, Landing craft, Plant, etc.

Many of the early AIF numbers in Ledger 01 were for Horsedrawn vehicles of the 1st AIF (and therefore do not have the WD vehicle classes), but some numbers were re-allocated for mechanised vehicles in WW2. Also, many of the low numbers recorded in Ledger 05 are the early system of Department of Defence "DD^" numbers and were replaced by the "Cxxxx" system, which in turn became ARNs. The books do not specify at what date these changes came into effect. There is also no information regarding which units that vehicles were issued to, but there is occaisional disposal information which records a unit, which more often than not is a Base Ordnance Depot or Supply Battalion.

Light Horse Regiments were Militia units and not part of the AIF, although some re-equipped and retrained as MMG Bn's, Armoured or Mechanised Cavalry units, with some transferring to the AIF.

It is clear that just about every book was running concurrently with other books, and that numbers were not issued consecutively.

[Roddy de Normann]

Tony -

Many thanks for posting the Rego vol details...

Following up from an earlier question, would an issued AIF become a C-Number if the veh was to join an AMF unit ? If so, I presume that AIF units would use AIFT-numbers while the AMF units would have used C-Numbers both at the same time ? On veh re-allocation the AIF-T would have/could have changed to a C-Number and the original AIFT used on something else ? Certainly this is how I interpret Michael Cecil's description of it.

For instance, I have logged:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIF T-1860 (Hull No: 71)

Carrier MG (Aust) LP1

1st (Australian) Armoured Regiment & 4th (Australian) Light Horse

Veh Engine No: R3640F

- 8 Feb 42 - Veh transfered fm 1 AAR to 4 LH on reorg of 2 Cav Div to 2 Mot Div - 1 AAR War Diary, AWM52-1-5-39-001

- 18 Jun 42 - VRN changed to Hull No Type by Victoria LoC Area instr - AWM Rego Book, AIF 261/12 via Shane Lovell Archive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This veh changed hands before the Hull Numbering came in although the latter was noted and thus likely to have changed when ordered to do so. Would this veh have first sported AIF T-1860 and then changed to an AMF C-Number ?

What I would love to do is note down all the Rego material and have a really good trawl through the war diaries to attempt to work some of this out ! Do you know of anyone who has gone through the Dept of Interior files looking for C-Number info ?

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Vehicles INTENDED for the AIF were issued AIF numbers, while vehicles INTENDED for local service were not. There are many instances where Militia units possessed AIF reg vehicles, and vice versa. The reg was not changed each time a vehicle undertook an inter-unit transfer.

Progressively from Dec '41 ALL AIF registration numbers were cancelled and moved to the C system. As you could imagine, this would take some time and was still happening a year later. Once the vehicle was taken off the AIF system, the number was not re-allocated.

[phoenix]

interesting that the later ARN books are always missed from those lists, but I suppose that is because they are not at the AWM.

[Euan McDonald]

I was wondering if Justin has an update on this carrier project.

[Justin Pollard]

Hello Euan,

Not much being happening on the hull, but a lot of components are now overhauled and awaiting fitment.
Gathering a lot of parts for it.
hopefully will be getting back into it by August.

Regards
Justin.

[Justin Pollard]

Hello All,

I'm thinking of selling my carrier project as I just don't seem to be able to find time to do it. It has a engine and gearbox, rear diff, a complete set of track, mix of NOS and very good, steering cam and side rollers all overhauled, fully overhauled instrument panel, full set of wheels and bogies, engine cover, NOS flare box, some of the rear bins and lots more, Asking $9000
Please PM me for further details but only if you think your serious!.

Regards
Justin.