Independent Machinegun Battalions

horsa · #1 03-03-09, 16:55

Hey Jordan,

I'd seen the post you mentioned and notes that you scanned in when searching out something else in the past. Seems they were really specific to the Canadian 4th Infantry Brigade in the 2nd Division which your RHLI and Essex Scottish were in.

Toronto Scottish (MG) was the support battalion for the 2nd Division so some of my initial questions could equally be applied to them. If their D-Coy (4.2" mortars) had T-16s, would A-C Coys (Vickers) have also had T-16s?

During the push into Caen, the two Support Battalions (2nd Division and 3rd Division) worked more as a tag-team on fire missions for the infantry units. When one came off the line, the other filled in the gap. Seems they did that on and off at least until the assault crossing that took place in October which I mentioned in the first post. Haven't researched if the 2nd Division went that way or not.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #2 03-03-09, 18:30

David, I know of no T-16s fitted out to carry Vickers Guns the way both Mk1 and Mk2 carriers were. They were, however, kitted for 4.2" mortars as well as general towing duties for the 6pdr anti-tank gun. Later on in the war there were other, ad-hoc conversions such as that seen in the famous picture of a Lake Superior carrier in Holland (which Stewart Loy has emulated with his), so who really knows? Don't count on it, though - the fact is, many T-16s never got to the continent at all for whatever reason.

Hope this helps!

Michael Dorosh · #3 04-03-09, 03:09

The Canadian Army Vehicle Data Book published in March 1944 asserts the following:

Carrier, Medium Machine Gun (No. 3, Mark II) used by MG Battalions (standard Universal type, not T16)
Carrier, Universal, T16 - used by ATk Regt and Atk platoons of infantry battalions (only) - no mention of MG battalions whatsoever
Carrier, 4.2-in mortar, T16 - used by MG battalions

Windsor production began in September 1944, anticipated roles in March 1944 were "similar to T16 carrier".

My understanding is that the Toronto Scottish and Camerons of Ottawa used the standard MMG Carrier in the MG companies, and T16s in the 4.2" mortar companies. Photographic evidence seems to bear this out, certainly for the Normandy timeframe.

horsa · #4 04-03-09, 04:33

Hey Michael,

I hadn’t seen that report but it helps to confirm that at least the heavy mortar companies of the Independent Support Battalions for each Canadian Division likely had the T-16s at the time of the invasion. Another report which would seem to corroborate that information is the 18 July 45 Report No 141 on the Situation of the Canadian Military Forces Overseas. Appendix B was compiled by 21st Army Group from monthly vehicle position reports in May 1944 and states the equipment used by the Canadian Forces at the start of operations in Normandy for June 1944. The T-16 is listed as 155 vehicles with the intended establishment being 300. The same report covers Equipment in northwest Europe effective December 1944 and 266 T-16s were held with the intended establishment being increased to 348 vehicles. So even if you factor attrition, the number of T-16s in action still increased by more than 100 during the fall of 1944 following the invasion.

Section 82 of the report covers the T-16 and it says the vehicle was first adopted by the Canadian Army in October 1943 for towing the 6-pounder guns and towing 4.2” mortars. But then says Universal Carriers were used for 6-pounders during the assault landing and continued to be equipped mainly with these. But 100 T-16s modified for carriage of the 4.2” mortar were available for issue by the end of April 1944.

Might be that they earmarked T-16s as being a priority for the Support Battalions since they knew there would be an initial shortage at the time of the invasion. So anti-tank units stayed with what they had while the heavy mortar units received new vehicles which had the modifications for mortar gear and ammunition storage.

Section 81 covers universal carriers and mentions them being adopted for the Medium Machine Gun as a new requirement in 1944. It also states these were obtained from British sources. This likely included the three machine gun companies in each of the Division’s Support Battalions even though no units are named. And that would fall in place with what Geoff mentioned. I guess if they couldn’t meet demand of T-16s for the A/T units, they sure couldn’t supply the demands needed for the carrier borne MMG units.

Michael Dorosh · #5 04-03-09, 05:17

On an unrelated note, I'm looking for an overhead view of the OXFORD carrier if anyone has a plan view or overhead photo...

David, do you have a copy of this book?

http://servicepub.com/toolsofthetrade.htm

horsa · #6 04-03-09, 18:58

I've read the overview for the book but don't have a copy yet. On my wish list but I don't think it will cover what I was originally looking for on this thread. It probably would answer the things I was speculating on related to why the heavy mortar units received the T-16 in favor of the A/T units though.

Shot below is from the 1st Battalion Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (MG) history. It shows a T-16 4.2" Mortar Carrier prior to Operation Switchback in October 1944. You can tell it is a mortar version by the angle iron rail bolted down the length of the hull where the normal side skirts would be bolted on. This shot appears in a couple of other publications but it has different captions when compared to the 1948 printed Cameron war diary.

And since you asked, I think this is an overhead shot of an Oxford Carrier. It says experimental in the caption so the layout could be different but the exterior would appear to be an Oxford based on the front fenders, front armor and the skirt area over the tracks. It comes from the old Profile AFV Weapons series and is the book titled Armoured Personnel Carriers - A Survey. Price was $2 back in 1974

Michael Dorosh · #7 05-03-09, 01:56

The book is actually a streamlined version of four different reports, one of which you quoted from already - still well worth the money, in my opinion.

I sent the picture of the Oxford Carrier to an acquaintance - a group is working on a Korean War module for the ASL game and need to know the layout in order to do the counter artwork - and was quite thrilled after multiple searches proved fruitless. Thank goodness for old books, eh? Huge thanks to you, and your library.