Ford/Marmon-Herrington MGT's

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
At this juncture may I ask The King of the Past Threads, King Hanno to dig up the threads about Ford and GM axle components so that we can acquaint our members who have joined since please? Also because I still get confused!

Using the search page I came up with the three other threads wile looking for Canadian Traction Co of Windsor. Was that what you were looking for?

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks King Hanno. Could we ask Mr Manuals please or anyone with the Parts Books to confirm once and for all what axles Ford used from 1940 onwards, save for the 'exception' F15A chassis, and what axles GM of Canada used [although they used McKinnon components mainly]. I have a list but I want to get the definitive answer.

The 6 x 6 M-H trucks evidently used a Ford front axle [after say 1940 ...the 1940 COE Ford axle was deemed not strong enough] and Timken bearings, plus a M-H transfer case in the front + Thornton tandem-drive rear axle with Timken rear axles & Thornton rear casing/drive shafts. The jury is still out on whether Ford of Canada bought-in M-H front transfer cases, though I am sure that they did and did not produce them in the axle plant in Windsor. GM of Canada of course had their subsidiary, McKinnons Industries Ltd in St Catherines, Ontario [near Toronto I gather] which produced axles and cases after Government request in 1940.

That reminds me about the Danforth Avenue.Toronto, Ford of Canada Plant..it was extant pre-war but I have no idea whether they were active during the war.
Actually just found the answer: 'The ‘Danforth Plant’ started up in 1923 to take over production of Ford Model Ts from the Christie & Dupont Assembly Plant. It was phased out as an assembly plant at some time during the war and sold in 1946'. I wonder if they assembled carriers?

[Tony Smith]

Another user of Australian assembled Marmon Herringtons was the various representatives of the Salvation Army supporting the AIF. While an almost inseparable part of the Aussie war effort, this charity purchased their own vehicles outside of Army acquisitions, and therefore ended up with some unique vehicles. There's a few pics on the AWM database of their M-H Vans, which I presume are 1 or 1.5 tonners.

[Tony Smith]

...another.

[Tony Smith]

...again.

If Ford of Geelong was attempting to drum up commercial business for Canadian sourced M-H conversion kits, and not just supply the Army, it would seem reasonable that they might also contact the Ford agents in NEI to see what interest there could be there. All of this might be outside of Military co-operation between Aust and the Dutch, just a purely commercial venture?

[nuyt]

Hmmmm,

Just took a second look at Hanno's second MGT picture as mentioned and linked above and then I saw it:

Remember the description of the 1938 MH Scout car sold to the NEI above:

"Marmon-Herrington, 1938, T13-type scout car w/rear of hull cut off and replated, ring mounted .30 calibre mg rear of hull, .30 cal mg pedestal mounted on right outside, .50 calibre mg on high pedestal behind right front mudguard, radio-equipped,sold to the NEI"

Check out the high pedestal behind right front mudguard at the MGT pictured below (that has no .50 but a Lewis gun: KNIL had hundreds of these, 6.5mm and 7.7mm).

This may be all one big happy family of MH MGT and Scout cars! or was such a pedestal mount in that place a typical US pre-war feature?

So was MH producing a long line of MGT trucks starting off with the 1938 T13ish type Scout Car (that may have had some armour) and ending (?) with the 1942 model Ford/MH type like the one BoB Schutt owns?

Bill Murray, Robert Stafford and others, do you know of any other pictures of these kinds/series of Scout/MG trucks?

A credible source just suggested me that the Ford Commandowagen indeed was ordered at MH by NPC and was called Ford/MH LDI-4. I hope to have some more info on friday or saturday.

HTH
Nuyt

[Robert Stafford]

To try to answer a few questions that my posting generated:

David,

I'm not sure about US vs. Canadian sourcing of the M-H-supplied NPC Fords, but see no reason the couldn't have come from the US. It's correct that Ford US built no RHD vehicles, but that doesn't say they didn't export them, which I'm fairly confident they did, to smallish overseas assembly operations like NZ and South Africa. Of course, the US vehicle frames were drilled for their drive pattern throughout the '30s and '40s, so no problem there. Yes, M-H simply convered these standard ambidextrous Ford frames to RHD for countries like Australia instead of to LHD for the US. This merely entailed a RHD version of the front two cross members (cutouts for the front drive shaft) and the same for the transfer case and front diff, which were mirror images of their LHD mates. The internals remained the same, of course.

Aussie Army M-H Fords that I've seen have both Canadian and US engines, but as you note, most have been transplanted at some stage, often because of Ford's great reco engine program or a backyard swap. I'd say that over 50% of the ones I've seen have Canadian engines, with either iron or aluminium heads, so I suspect the original engines, and probably the frames, were sourced in Canada. Therefore, extrapolating, the M-H components were probably from Canadian Traction.

Nuyt, I can't recall if Detroit Public Lib. has anything directly on the NPC orders, but doubt it. I'll check my collection list and respond. What they've got is Arthur Herrington's personal papers, mostly correspondence, but loads of brilliant company vehicle photos and good stuff from AH's 1938 sales trip to Egypt, Greece, Romania, etc. where we see him driving a truck up near the Pyramids as a publicity stunt (same with a woody up the Acropolis, first vehicle to do it, to wow the Greek Army), which resulted in sales to the Egyptian Army. Some of these vehicles turn up later in photos of the Long Range Desert Group and related formations in the N.African campaign.

M-H also sold significant orders to the Belgian Army (their request was also the inception of the 1/2-ton M-H Ford pickup in 1937, predecessor of the Jeep), mostly gun tractors but some armoured cars. M-H also sold large numbers of armoured cars to Iran, c. 1935-9; many M-H trucks also went to Russia during the war under Lend Lease.

By the way, New Zealand also used the same 1939-41 3-ton (reinforced 1.5-ton frame) M-H Ford artillery tractors as the Aussie Army. At least one of these is still extant, fully restored and driveable in a NZ museum.

You will make it to Detroit before I ever will, so go for it!

David again, re. axles:

All Ford M-H trucks I'm aware of -- any country, any year, LHD or RHD, 4x4 or 6x6 -- used a Ford front diff the same as a Ford rear diff, but of course with M-H front wheel drive componentry added. Even the 1/2-tons use a modified Ford rear diff in the front. My Aussie Army '42 6x6, and all others I've seen, are ALL Timken in the rear axles, interchangeable with Ford -- nothing Thornton about them.

Ford of Canada would have bought M-H transfer cases, not built them.

Tony:

You are correct on the Aussie Salvo vans being M-H 1-tonners. I forgot about them in my previous posting, though I'd found those same AWM photos you posted. I'd say Ford Geelong had its hands well and truly full (as did Ford NZ, which did assembly plus refurb. for all Allied armies in the Pacific theatre) cranking out trucks, ships, guns, aircraft fuel tanks, etc. for the Aussie war effort, which was completely govt.-controlled. I don't think they had time, or permission, to think at all about commercial business for M-H conversions, much less anything else!

Eric:

I've never seen a pedestal machine gun mount like that on pre-war M-Hs for US military use, most of which went to the USMC, and few at that. I've only seen this mount on Hanno's website pictures of Dutch trucks. I have some pics of pre-war US military M-H 1/2-ton trucks (and larger) -- USMC operational rigs plus prototypes for the Army, Coast Guard and National Guard units, that look very like Bob Schutt's Queensland NEI-diverted 1/2-ton pickup (none of these trucks are armoured). M-H produced a separate line of armoured cars on a Ford 1.5-ton chassis, which the US Army never took up, but the Belgians and Iranians did. These trucks evolved, with significant conservative design elements, from the first 1/2-ton M-H 4x4 prototype built to meet a Belgian Army request in 1936-7. The first truck was a converted '36 Ford pickup, which featured in many M-H ads.

LD-1-4 in M-H nomenclature means a 1937 1/2-ton -- "LD" for Light Duty, "1" for the first year of production for the 1/2-ton model, and "4" for 4WD. My 1939 is an LD-3-4, and Bob Schutt's 1942 NEI pickup is an LD-6-4. These trucks are all super-rare, military or civilian. Even rarer are the Ford passenger cars that M-H converted using the same gear. My US LHD M-H 1/2-ton transfer case is the mirror image of the RHD one that Bob's truck should have.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Robert, I have my doubts about US supply to Ford SA and NZ...they were subsdiaries of Ford of Canada and logically they received Canadian Fords as they did post-war. Plus English of course! GM SA did however receive a mix of US and Canadian cars and trucks plus Opels. This requires further research on my part! The M-H 6 x 6 judging by previous threads used Thornton rear bogies with the Thornton rear transfer case + Timken axles. Now we know they used the Ford axle in the front. The Chevrolet 6 x 4 chassis ex-French order that ended up in the UK had Chevrolet front axles with Thornton rear bogie with Thornton case + Timken axles.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Hanno, I dropped MH company a line to see what they've got to say...keep you posted.

Like Robert said, it is not likely M-H is able to help you with information - they even "can't service trucks sold prior to 1984"(!) See Marmon-Herrington Service and Parts > Historical Truck Parts for the contact details of Chuck's Trucks and Don Chew, two very knowledgeable M-H afficionados.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I have my doubts about US supply to Ford SA and NZ...they were subsdiaries of Ford of Canada and logically they received Canadian Fords as they did post-war. Plus English of course!

Correct - the South African Reconnaissance Cars were assembled at the Dorman Long structural steel company from armour plate made by the South African Iron & Steel Industrial Corporation and chassis assembled by Ford Motor Company of South Africa (Pty.). Ford SA used 3-ton chassis components imported from Canada, modified with Marmon-Herrington supplied conversion kits. (Later Marks no longer had a separate chassis, and used CMP F60L automotive components due to major difficulties in getting M-H components in 1942.)

So the chassis and engines came from Canada, and the All-Wheel Drive Conversion kits from Marmon-Herrington Company of Indianapolis, Indiana USA. I would not be surprised if the same was true for Ford Australia. I can't see why M-H would deliver conversion kits to South Africa or Australia through their Canadian agent.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am not so sure Hanno...the big problem with the UK, Australia and NZ were that they had no US dollars, Australia particularly so. I cannot speak for the Dominion of South Africa but I would guess that they were in the same boat. Thus reliance had to be made on the acceptance by Canada of Sterling and those currencies allied to Sterling, e.g. Australian and New Zealand Pounds meant that Canadian supply was preferred.

I am pretty certain that Chrysler in Detroit who were not party to the CMP development went along with this currency exchange problem and that some trucks ordered through Chrysler Export in Detroit were partly built in Detroit and then railed across the river to Windsor and thus became 'Canadian'. GM used to channel all funds through New York in US dollars from wherever in the world and so it made no difference to them whether payment was made in Ottawa or NYC because the Corporation ended up with US dollars. As Canadian Traction was a subidiary of Marmon-Herrington I see no reason why exports were made from Windsor albeit exported as components from the US headquarters.

[nuyt]

Thanks all, just a quick reply. Back later.

Here it is: the grandfather of jeeps and MGT's.
Note how the windscreen type did not change from 1936-1942 production as well as the basic outline of the vehicle (body, location of spare wheel).

HTH
NUyt

pic from:
http://www.geocities.com/jeeptoys/history.htm

[nuyt]

Here's a MH one: A7SC4, 1935
Note typical MH style windscreen and canvas cover (comparable to KNIL Commandowagen)

Enjoy
Nuyt

[nuyt]

And here is a White T7. Note the pedestal behind righthand front mudguard.

Enjoy
Nuyt

Pics are from a swedish site:
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/tankme.htm

[Robert Stafford]

Nuyt:

I checked my listings for the Herrington Collection in the Detroit Public Library and find no specific mention of NPC contracts. However, they claim to have all production figures and company correspondence for a long period spanning the war, so there may well be something there.

David and Hanno:

I agree with your assessment about wartime Commonwealth Fords being sourced from Canada, not US; this is news to me that thes Commonwealth operations were subsids of Ford Canada, not of Dearborn directly. Live and learn! All fascinating stuff. Also agree that the M-H componentry for these Cmwlth locations probably came from Indianapolis direct, but it might also have been sent out with the knocked-down trucks and been sourced from Canadian Traction. Still have my doubts about the Thornton gear on the 6x6s.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Ford of Canada was until recent years only a partial subsidiary of Gord of Dearborn, i.e. was mostly-owned. Ford of Canada then owned most of the overseas subsidiaries with the notable exception of Ford in England, Ireland, Germany, Belgium. Others were Ford of England subsidiaries but most were as I said, Ford of Canada subsidiaries.

On the 6 x 6 drive components I was referring to past threads which Hanno mentioned.http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...action+Windsor

http://www.geocities.com/marmonherr.../truck_cdn.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
My friends, I hope I am not exaggerating, but here is another Marmon-Herrington mystery (I just cant stop):

"Marmon-Herrington, 1938, T13-type scout car w/rear of hull cut off and replated, ring mounted .30 calibre mg rear of hull, .30 cal mg pedestal mounted on right outside, .50 calibre mg on high pedestal behind right front mudguard, radio-equipped,sold to the NEI"

Does anybody have a picture of a MH T13 (as in National Guard) or possibly of this particular NEI-delivered vehicle? I reckon if this is true (and it is really worthwhile I think to follow this lead) they might have been delivered pre-war and numbers would be maximum 10-15 cars (or else they were buying off the shelve left overs since they were desperate enough).

In "Early White Scout Cars" (Classic Military Vehicle Magazine October 2002, p.15-17) mention is made of the T13: "Marmon-Herrington's contribution [to the Scout car development], the T13, had a more rounded hull and featured swept rear wings which gave it a rakish air. It was based on a 1-ton Ford/Marmon-Herrington 4x4 truck chassis, retaining the Ford V8 engine of 3622cc, and 38 soft-skin examples were purchased by the National Guard in training exercises. Neither of these went into series production."
One of the pictures in this article shows a pair of Marmon-Herrington Scout Cars (one of which is W 60583) during 'war games' near Fort McCoy, WI, during August 1940. It clearly shows the well-known M3A1 Scout Car was patterned on the M1 and M2 Scout Cars, albeit with a wider body. These early Scout cars all had a variety of machine-guns placed on them as described above. A postcard featuring an M1 even shows how the three Browing machine-guns were intended to be used for AA defence.

As stated, only a handful of these T13's were built, but no doubt Col. Herrington tried to sell them to the NEI as well as other armies. Judging by Crow & Icks' description, I assume M-H sold only one for testing. Was it used to fight off the Japanese invasion? Who knows....

Officially KNIL listed by Jan 1942 a number of 40 Scout Cars (no reference to make or name). Also Martens and De Vries in their book on KNIL small arms mention both White AND MH Scout Cars as armed with Colt Browning w/c .50's.

In the actions on Java in March 1942 I can count in the best study on that (by NOrtier) at least 37-38 Scout Cars with different units.

So if this is true that besides White's KNIL owned some other Scout Car type, what did it look like? I have never so far seen any other type of scout car in KNIL service then the White...

The August 1941 US Army mission report lists 40 "White Scout Cars", which must be the M3A1. The NPC was "negotiating for contracting remaining need for 80 White Scout-cars". Possibly the need was (partially) filled with Ford/M-H MGT's rather than Scout Cars?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Please may I enlist the combined talents of all contributors?

I need to establish the components used in Marmon-Herrington 4 x 4 and 6 x 6 conversions. Here is a succession of authorative information taken from DND papers et al:

'On Tuesday, 30 May 1939 at G.M. of Canada, Oshawa,, Colonel Carr was shown two 4 x 4 trucks destined apparently for the Malay States. [It is queried here whether Colonel E.W. MacDonald, the ‘Special Representative’ in Ottawa for G.M. Products of Canada was involved in the presentation]. The company informed him that they also had orders for two more such trucks for Australia, one for India and one for Egypt. The front axle on all of these trucks was a ‘Timkin’ [actually Timken], product that was similar in all respects to the Marmon-Herrington system, which was also produced by Timken'.

'On 30 September 1939, Stan Ellis cabled in code from the High Commission in London to W.R. Campbell who was by then the Chairman of the War Supply Board, referring to Carr’s enquiry to Canada House regarding the Guy Quad Ant. This vehicle had been designed throughout as a 4-wheel drive [4 x 4] 25-Pounder gun tractor and was also equipped with a Winch. Could Campbell explore the possibility of using the Marmon-Herrington front end drive on the Ford of Canada 101 [-inch] chassis with an off-centre to the left rear axle differential and a rear drive shaft from the rear side Marmon-Herrington front drive shaft takeoff position on the transfer case?'. This resulted in the F15A + F-GT of course.

'H.J. Carmichael, Vice-president and General Manager at G.M. of Canada replied to Charles Burns, by then Assistant Deputy Minister in the D.N.D., 6 October 1939, that he wished to assure that their company would co-operate 100%, and would do everything in their power to facilitate arriving at a proper unit to be built from Canadian component parts, to serve the purpose that the unit served in England {sic.}. Carmichael added that they would be more than pleased to have a conference there in Oshawa with officials of the Department, Ford officials, and the company’s Engineers and ‘economically work out a satisfactory unit’. .......Ellis cabled Carr October 15 and asked to be rushed a reply to his query regarding the adaptation of the Marmon-Herrington system for an Artillery Tractor'.

'Sid Swallow has commented that the pilot Ford 4 x 2 trucks used parts procured with the benefit of automotive suppliers’ parts books including Timken front axles, and the mudguards from a generator trailer manufacturer in Montreal'. However I think Sid was confusing the 4 x 4 pilot Fords with the 4 x 2...the 4 x 2 I think used the '40 Ford axle although the correspondence says that the '39 Ford front axle was not stong enough. In production Ford used GM axles in the early days simply because the DND had asked McKinnons to tool-up for multi-drive truck components and under the mutual component-supplying arrangement Ford made the cabs etc for GM of Canada and GM supplied axles. Can someone please confirm the point about 4 x 2 Ford components?

'It is suggested [by me!] that the pilot 4 x 4 F.15A truck in common with early production trucks was equipped with Chevrolet differentials on Chevrolet axles*, with the Marmon-Herrington transfer case and Rzeppa C.V.J. [Constant Velocity joints] steering ends. The pilot C.15A may well have been similarly equipped although the Chevrolet-badged production units had Timken-Detroit Axle Corporation transfer case and Bendix-Weiss Universal joints [U.V.J.] steering ends. However, Ford’s Rzeppa design U.V.J. and axle shafts as fitted by to the front of their 4 x 4 Trucks were interchangeable with the Bendix-Weiss components, but Ottawa suggested that both right- and left-assemblies of the same type be fitted rather than mix-and-match'.

As a point of discussion, I am suggesting that the Marmon-Herrington company contracted transfer case manufacture to Timken Axles Corporation in Detroit, and that M-H used in their front-drive arrangement either Ford rear axles or Timken axles. Does the Timken Parts List refer to M-H pre-war please?
Hanno's photos confirm that in wartime Canadian Traction used Timken rear-drive axles/cases, as well as Welles-Thornton components from the Thornton Tandem Company of Detroit. http://www.geocities.com/marmonherri...truck_cdn.html

It did occur to me to ask those with owners of M-H trucks to advise if there is any wording cast into the transfer cases to indicate manufacturer!

As regards 3-ton trucks, the correspondence shows that Ellis was talking in October 1939 of using 1940 EATON rear axles [on the F15 at least he was calling for 4 x 4 M-H drive on 1/3rd of the first production and the rest 4 x 2 with Eaton 2-speed rear axles] which he understood were stronger that 'Ford Standard' {sic.} and further 'In this connection it would be necessary for Eaton to provide a suitable gear ratio to coincide with the Ford Standard used in the front axle'. So Ellis was talking about using in the F60S/F60L and I suppose F30S a 1940 Ford front axle + M-H transfer case by conjection, and a specially-designed Eaton rear axle with custom gearing. Thus the '40 Ford COE rear axle was deemed strong enough for front-drive even in 3-tonners! The relevance here of Eaton axles is because of the GM influence...the CMP trucks used COE components. *The 4 x 2 C.O.E. or Forward-Control G.M.C. trucks used Timken [Timken # 31000? I-beam Reverse-Elliott?] front axles and Eaton [Eaton # 1265 H.D.?] 2-speed rear axles, although the Normal-Control trucks used Chevrolet I-beam and one or more designs of Chevrolet rear axles. The U.S. trucks used either Chevrolet Type CTCH front axles/3-speed-gearboxes and rear axles or [the heavier trucks] Chevrolet Type UCH front axles/4-speed gearboxes and rear axles. Because Ellis was thinking all the time of using COE components even in the Ford CMPs, he naturally considered using what GM used which also to a certain extent if not large extent coincided with his beloved Marmon-Herrington arramgements!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

...the production Chevrolet 4 x 4 chassis must have used imported Timken transfer cases until McKinnon Industries tooled-up to produce a Canadian [and in my opinion] licence-built version. Note that Carmichael used the phrase 'economically work out'...costs were clearly of concern here in 1939 before the DND produced their Master Contract with McKinnon Industries Limited. Something about 'not wishing to kill the goose that layed the golden egg' at least until the egg had hatched!?

[Mike K]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
check out this site about AMEP and mr Michael Cecil. It talks about restoring a Ford 11Y Battery Staff Car. Does anybody know this gentleman or can anybody give a clue if this was the same vehicle?

I have always liked the O1Y and 11Y battery staff vehicles . I met a fellow from QLD at Corowa last month who is restoring a O1Y Battery Staff truck .

They have not survived in great numbers , the rear body was a fragile thing with a wooden frame . I have here a antenna base on loan , for the AWA 101 wireless set as used in the O1Y battery staff truck .

Mike Cecils 11Y battery staff vehicle was very original as found , they were later used as GS trucks .

Mike

[nuyt]

Hi all,
Yesterday I took a day off and paid a visit to the Library of the Delft Army Museum aas well as The National Archives in The Hague.

There is some progress to mention but not groundbreaking: I will have to go back some more times, I guess.

Some results:
By March 1941 KNIL had received no less than 50 Commandowagens! That probably fullfilled all their needs as there seems to be no word on further orders nor complaints of non-delivered orders after March 1942.

Indeed, KNIL had initially ordered a batch of DAF 4x4 Chevrolet terreinauto's (similar as the Pag-trekkers). They did this after extensive testing of a large number of different staff cars in 1939. During this tests German Tempo's and Italian Fiat 508's came out on top!
For "practical" reasons KNIL decided to buy the DAF's. The Ford/MH does not appear to have been tested at that stage, so it must have been ordered after delivery of the DAF's was no longer possible.

Robert,
Thanks. Those production figures could be very interesting indeed. Did somebody already try to find them?

Mike, thanks as well. The Australian Ford Battery Staff vehicle appears to be a different vehicle to the NEI one after all?

Hanno,

Thanks for the (stereo) reply. Could you scan the MH T13 at Fort McCoy picture?

I agree it is likely that MH sold just one Armoured Scout Car to KNIL. There was a KNIL Cavalry Depot that deployed 1 "oefenscoutcar" (for training) and obsolete trucks in Central Java during the Japanese invasion. Maybe that's the one?

You are correct about the listings in the US Mission Report. But I am working on a extensive KNIL inventory (not just vehicles) and I find the different listings that I have not always accurate, though in general they are pretty good. I guess there was no time for subtlety in that period. And often brand names became magic words: Trucks were simply Chevrolets (Sipralets in Malay) and Scout cars may have become White Scout Cars or vice versa.

About the use of the MGT's. Col Herrington's quote "to protect airfields, fuel dumps etc" sounds more like the task of the NEI territorial forces of which there was a plethora of units: Stadswacht, Landwacht, Reservekorps, Landstorm.

It were these units and especially the Stadswacht that had to guard objects such as these and maintain law and order. And these were slowly developing into well-armed and partly mechanised units that had been training together for over 1 1/2 years (but they were not well regarded by KNIL officers and KNIL historians alike).

But that's just speculating....

KNIL cavaly had received Armoured cars and plenty of Ford GP's, so they would not need another type of light 4x4 truck.

Here's another shot of the Ford Commandowagen:

Enjoy
Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Nuyt, the Chevrolet chassis would have been assembled by GM Continental S.A. in the Prince Albert Dock, Antwerpen but supplied through the Rotterdam sales office of the same company.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

...assemble right hand drive chassis for the NEI!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I found this ad in The Toronto Mail in October 1941..I guess that this was a Marmon-Herrington 6 x 6 with either Thornton or Timken rear bogie. Note the Ontario civilian style rego! Note that it refers to all-Ford vehicles and Ford-supplied chassis, e.g. to Canadian Traction for the M-H trucks.

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...efuellerad.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Nuyt,

Great research work - did you find anything about post-war shipments of trucks to NEI?
Below is a picture of what I think are 3-ton Ford/Marmon-Herrington trucks. Their cab is the '42-'47 style, so they could be either pre- or post-war deliveries! Although I think they wouldn't look that good after surviving a war and an occupation. Most likely civilian spec trucks, by the way.

Regards,
Hanno


http://home.tiscali.nl/~ac23964/3-5R...el/roffel9.jpg
Source: Foto-overzicht 2 Transport- Compagnie

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

I am in a bit of a hurry but will return.
I could be wrong but I believe those are the 49-52 cab style. Door handles and flutes on the bonnet and so on.
Need to resize the picture later.
Bill

[nuyt]

Yeah, I know that picture and I have always wondered just like you...I think there are more of these sorts of pics. They look like Cab/chassis delivered with local bodies. Could be post 45 , could be 1942, could be completely second hand post 45 purchase.

There have been some publications about Aan- en Afvoer troepen in Indonesia but with little details on trucks delivered. My main research is focusing on 1939-42 KNIL vehicles and related presently.

There were also Ford/MH 6x6 trucks after 1945 (well, you never know, maybe delivered earlier). have you seen these? If not, I'll post them...

Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I could be wrong but I believe those are the 49-52 cab style. Door handles and flutes on the bonnet and so on.

Bill,

You could very well be right. Below's a picture of the same type of Ford. Let me know what you think later.

H.

http://ftp.castel.nl/~kleig04/fotos/foto10.jpg
Source: http://ftp.castel.nl/~kleig04/

[nuyt]

civilian Ford/Marmon-Herrington 6x6 in Priok 1949 (From: Hogendoorn, De Jeep in Nederland)
What model year?

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

Still in between Spring garden work. Today is my day off.

Look at the wings, the the push out ventilator pane in the front window and the obvious installation of the headlamps into the front wings instead of with a streamlined "housing". I think I am correct on this one. One question attached to this, when did the Dutch leave the NEI area?
Got to run.
Bill