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#31
10-03-04, 18:00
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Reply
Quote:
MS = 1942 Model 160 inch wheelbase 1.5 ton Quote:
Quote:
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#32
11-03-04, 19:50
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knil chevrolet trucks
David,
please allow me to refrase my last post. I am trying my best to get a clear picture here (am getting older). According to the US mission report August 41 (which I sent you last month) KNil needed: - 1100 4x4 Chevrolet trucks 1 1/2 ton of which 200 were on hand at that time and the rest, a further 900 were eventually shipped by Feb 42. As abovementioned. - 7000 4x2 Chev trucks 1 1/2 ton of which 4700 were on hand at that moment (1700 army trucks and 3000 civil or requisitioned trucks). Trucks on hand were 1937-41 Priok assembly (including probably the 750 post-1940 order you discovered) and some Continental imports. Remaining need (partially ordered): 2300 trucks. According to a note in the report these trucks normally arrived CKD at Priok and had 160 inch wheelbase. As you said 160 inch models were MS 1942, what model were they talking about there in 1941? Canadian 1541s? Vanderveen mentions MS4403 as 1941-44 production. Also the troop trucks pictured on the overvalwagen posts which we identified as MS were photographed in 1941, so they cant be 1942 models but were Canadian 1541 or still MS 1941? Or possibly shorter wheelbase trucks? Kindest regards, Nuyt
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#33
11-03-04, 20:14
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Best shot
The YR was a 134 inch wheelbase, and YS 160 inch wheelbase, 4 x 2 1941 Model Year trucks. There were no rhd YR and possibly YS trucks so far as I can see. All rhd British trucks with rhd were Canadian-supplied.
The MR and MS were 1942 Models, same wheelbase as the YR and YS respectively. However the 1942 Models were not introduced until October 1941. My concern was that there may not have been enough time for 1942 MODELS to be supplied from Tarrytown, New York Plant but there is a possibility that there was a mixture of both. I have checked my British records and found that there were a few MS Models supplied to the British Army but I have no idea when! However the YR was freely supplied for military and particularly essential non-military users such as for ambulances.
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#34
14-03-04, 18:27
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MS type trucks
David,
After looking at some pictures of KNIL MS-type trucks or similar it struck me that all vehicles seem to have dual rear wheels. many were pictured as early as sep/oct 41. Of course light trucks, ambulances and pickups had single rear wheels, but they were definitily rhd. I thought that Canadian production usually had single rear wheels, so would that make Canadian 1541 supply unreal? Nuyt
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#35
15-03-04, 11:36
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Model 1541
Model 1541 was basically the same as the 1542 and 1543, but and you raise a fair point, as per US Chevrolets twin wheels were available as 'Heavy Duty Equipment". The near-identical 1543 CC60L was produced in three known military versions:
1543X1 with DUAL REAR CIVILIAN WHEELS 1543X2 WITH SINGLE REAR MILITARY WHEELS 1543X3 WITH DUAL REAR CIVILIAN STYLE WHEELS with "X1"being export to "any Point Except Fully Built Up" "X2" for "United Kingdom Fullly Built Up" and "X3" for "India CKD" Now thanks to you I remembered that I could prove that there were indeed wartime GM of Canada exports to the NEI: "X6" was the destination code for "Batavia, Netherlands East Indies CKD", with by example "South Africa" was "X9", although GM South African used their own code "XG" in front of the Model Number, and "New Zealand" was "X5" although they used "XH". GM (Australia) may have been allocated five "X" codes in the Twenties [posibly "XJ" to "XN"] but never used them and Holden-assembled GM of Canada vehilces never had an "X" code...they used the Branch Aseembly Plant codes instead. So, if you ever found a NEI-assembled GM of Canada vehicle it may have a VIN or chassis number of say "11541X6012345" where "1" was "1941 Model Year", and "012345" was the sequential number BUT only if it was fully-assembled. CKD vehicles would be I suggest "XQ1541-1234" where "XQ2 was "Batavia Plant", and "1234" the sequential production number. As regards US exports the jury is out on whether the chassis had US-style codes such as "2MS01012345" where "2" = "Tarrytown", "1" was "Flint" which also produced military trucks pre-Pearl Harbor, then the Model Code, then the production month beginning with "01" for "January", then a sequential number. The alternative was CKD from Bloomfield, New Jersey Boxing Plant, in which case the chassis number might be "XQMS-1234" or variations on that with "XQ" indicating local assembly.
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#39
26-03-04, 18:10
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KNIL chevrolet in 1945
KNIL voortrekkers (reconstituted KNIL troops) in a US military production Chevrolet in Batavia oct/nov 1945. See above.
Is this a survivor from 1942 deliveries or was it acquired in 1945 from elsewhere? Nuyt
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#40
26-03-04, 18:53
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Being delivered
The shot of the chassis with cowl and windshield are civilian models....note the chrome grille and civilian style bumper. That would suggest that they were 1941 Models and purchased as 'civilian' trucks not military. The GM Java Plant appears to be the same as a photo in a 1944 GM publication.
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#41
03-04-04, 11:41
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a day at the archives (2)
Some feedback from a day at the archives...
In 1939 KNIL extensively tested wheeled and tracked artillery tractors to replace its ageing fleet of 6x4 (David: Timken Detroit Axle!)GMCs and Caterpillar 20 tractors. A large number of wheeled vehicles was tested: Scammell Pioneer, Saurer, Mercedes, Krupp, SteyrDaimlerPuch, Warford (?), DAF Ford/Cevrolet trado's, Chevrolet Maple Leaf, CKD Praga RV and Alvis Straussler. Maple Leaf and DAF Ford Trado came out on top and finally (several dozen?) of Maple Leaf's were ordered together with a large number of tracked CKD Praga tractors. It was decided that a number of Maple Leaf's would also be converted to 6x6 by DAF (but I don't think this materialised in time). Here 's a pic of the DAF Ford Trado that you do not want to miss: Enjoy Nuyt
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#42
03-04-04, 13:20
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Maple Leaf
In 1937 three photographs were delivered to the Canadian Department of National Defence of General Motors Corporation GMC 4 x 4 truck chassis as developed for the U.S.A. and Belgian Governments. It is now known that this was the GMC Model 4272, 1½ Ton 4 x 4 Cargo with the Chevrolet 206 cu. in. engine, and a wheelbase of 133 in. These were conversions of the 1936 Model Chevrolet RB with early style cab, and available also with flat-bed body and soft top cab. In respect of the latter, G.M. Continental in Antwerp, working with DAF of The Netherlands sold a 6 x 4 conversion for Chevrolet trucks from at least 1935 for the Dutch Army, using the Trado rear bogie to create the ‘Chevrolet/DAF-Trado’ Gun Tractor. DAF converted Chevrolet chassis to 4 x 4 for the Dutch Army in 1940, and had provided all-wheel drive conversions since 1935. The 1938 Pontiac GMC 4 x 4 was based on the 157 inch wheelbase Model T16B. The 1938 and 1939 GMC 6 x 6 was the Model 4929, and also used Timken-Detroit front and rear axles plus Timken transfer case.
The summer 1939 trials in Ontario witnessed by the Canadian Army etc. saw the testing of two Pontiac-designed GMC 4 x 4 military trucks destined for the Malay States, which would have been 1939 Model 4930, similar to the 1940 Model 4930 ACK-353, examples of which were exported to G.M. Continental, Antwerp and sold to the Dutch and probably Belgian Armies. However as they were Canadian chassis and 133 inch wheelbase they were Canadian GMC. Models 9433 and 9533 respectively. One each had been ordered for trials by Australia, India and Egypt. They would have been equipped with the Chevrolet 216 cu. in. unit. The Malay truck had 13.50 x 20 tyres all round and an Eaton 2-speed rear axle giving 8 forward speeds. In Australia it appears that G.M.-Holden’s imported ‘Maple-Leaf’ badged 4 x 4 trucks from 1940 onwards. This suggests that they were Model 1663 2½-tonner trucks of 133¼ in. wheelbase with imported G.M.C. 4 x 4 conversion i.e. Timken components. I can state that the trucks for Australia went to Holden’s, the one to Egypt to Alexandria and India Bombay. I am pretty certain that the one for the Malay States was exported through GM Java in Batavia as they served the region. I conject that the two trucks went through Batavia and that at some point the NEI government were altered to the fact. GM of Canada could offer an off-the-shelf truck. However, why ‘Maple Leaf’ and not ‘GMC’? The only answer that I can come up with is that as ‘General Motors Truck’ was emblazoned on the side this hinted at US-sourcing, although in fact the Canadian GMC and Maple Leaf chassis were clones of each other and used the same engines. ‘Maple Leaf Truck’ states that it was a Canadian truck, and I keep concluding that it was Canadian pride. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 06-09-06 at 22:36.
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#43
03-04-04, 16:04
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maple leaf
The Maple Leaf that was tested in the NEI was already equipped with a DAF-winch, so it might have been delivered through Europe.
Here are some specifics: Length:? width: 2,09 meters trackwidth: 1,89 m wheelbase: 3,42 m= 134 inch turning circle: 8,9 m weight:2560 kilo's ground clearance: 0,326 m horsepower: 85 max speed: 75 k/h gears: 4x2 hth nuyt Last edited by nuyt; 03-04-04 at 17:36.
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#44
03-04-04, 17:50
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another 1942 delivered Chevrolet?
Just found another picture (from the Indon. Indep.War period).
Is this again a US military style Chevrolet (order 76 03!), possibly delivered in 1942? But this one doesnt look like a military Chev but a civilan one: chrome styling, a wooden body, but again that number 76....? Delivered 1942 chassis and cab... to Wonosari? Nuyt
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#45
03-04-04, 21:06
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Re: another 1942 delivered Chevrolet?
Quote:
Please keep searching in those archives! H.
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#46
03-04-04, 22:50
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Hmmm
..never heard of Maple Leaf/Canadian Chevrolet being sold in Europe before as the Yanks had it sewn up through Bloomfield, New Jersey boxing plant BUT Tarrytown, New York supplied fully built-up vehicles to for example Portugal. The UK received Canadian Chevrolet cars from 1935 to 1938 though. Bloomfield supplied CKD trucks to Antwerpen, and Pontiac, Michigan, CKD COE Chevrolet + GMC + Oldsmobile trucks, and also the 4 x 4 and 6 x 6 FACTORY multi-drive GMC/Chevrolet trucks. Whilst I envisaged supply from Canada direct to Java, we know that the NEI received Chevrolet [and GMC?] trucks from Antwerpen delivered by sea from the docks. It is possible that Maple Leafs were shipped to Rotterdam* and thence to DAF bypassing Antwerpen, and subsequently re-shipped east. The discussion about equipping with 6 x 6 Trado bogies seems to confirm this.
The wheelbase you mentioned seems to confirm my suggestion that the 4 x 4 MLs were Model 1662 2.5 tonners, with Timken front axle and transfer case and Eaton 2-speed rear axle. These would be basically the same as the trucks for the Malay States. As such they were the fathers of the Chevrolet CMPs. I agree with Hanno..civilian trucks, Stake Body, possibly YR series. *Without cab...I would imagine that these were chassis-cowl units with cabs and bodies built in GM Java. There would be no need to deliver to Antwerpen unless the GM Continental style cab was required..GM C also built cabs for Ford just across the docks! Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 03-04-04 at 23:00.
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#47
04-04-04, 09:41
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chevrolet G7100
Hmm,
Yes, but could it be a G4100 supplied cab/chassis in civilian clothes in 1941-42? Hate to be "eigenwijs" here, but if it really turns out te be a crazy thought I will definitely leave it right here... 1. The first picture (if I understand the specifics at Vehicles for Victory website correctly) was for sure an earlier type (pre-september 1941) since it has CHEVROLET on the engine sides. This is a 1941 G4100. 2. There was no Dutch unit on Java (or in the whole NEI) before and after WW2 that had a number starting with 76. Nor did the Japanese Java Army have any. 3. Below you find some pictures of a US Chevrolet Factory in 1941 , as reported my the NEI mag Orient in 1941. It shows a terrain full of G41000's and below right you can see chassis/cab lines and far below right civilian style chassis/cab (with similar chrome lining as above). 4. In the documents I received from Mr Leland Ness (that I passed on to you David) there is talk about the first 300 4x4 Chevy's to be delivered chasssis/cab CKD. As is stated in one of the docs, diversion from october 1941 production had been "effected". The NPC was negotiating for the rest of the order (another 612). Both batches of diverted vehicles as well as still to be diverted needed permission under an Act of the 76th Congress. But I agree there are tons of other possibilities and the second vehicle might have been a post-45 acquisition from civilian stocks... Kind regards, Nuyt Last edited by nuyt; 05-04-04 at 16:21.
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#48
04-04-04, 11:08
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Proof?
Nuyt, I think that I have to say that the photo is proof that there had been civilian-type trucks ordered at some stage. There are two answers that come to mind:
a) Civilian orders for 1941 Models en train sequestred b) Because of the urgency, GM in Tarrytown, NY supplied standard trucks that were 'off the peg'. I am conjecting that the 4 x 4 military trucks were also built in Tarrytown judging by rego evidence of UK post-war disposals. Tarrytown exported YR and MS trucks to the UK before Pearl Harbor and the only Flint-built trucks I have come across were the Chevrolet-Thornton 6 x 4 YR trucks to French order.
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#49
05-04-04, 16:23
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I kept on going there, re-editing the last post.
Just one more addition: the order that had the 76 number included was a 4x4 Chevrolet 1 1/2 ton Cargo YR G-4100. Not to be confused with the YR TYPE/MODEL 4x2 Chevrolet... Nuyt
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#50
05-04-04, 16:25
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Re: chevrolet G7100
Quote:
No, it could not be a G7100 supplied in civilian clothes. Your picture and David's reasoning prove that civilian trucks were could have been supplied during the scrambling to get more vehicles in 1940-1941. Don't forget after WW2 a lot of vehicles, including civilian ones (e.g. Dodge Power Wagon), were supplied to the NEI army as well. Now, how are we going to make sure we're not mixing up pre- and post-war shipments? The fact that there was no Dutch unit in the whole NEI before and after WW2 that had a number starting with 76 does not mean trucks could not be marked with one. Also, it is a definite clue of vehicles being transferred in-theatre without being administered and re-marked. And yes, you are pigheaded  - but one needs to be like that to get anywhere researching these subjects!H.
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#51
05-04-04, 16:27
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YR
The 'YR' would presumably be the Master Book symbol, but the model..YP 4 x 4 Cargo I think.
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#53
05-04-04, 18:44
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Model
...either 1941, 1942 or 1946 Model...can't decide which but logic suggests 1946 as nearly-new look with perfect chrome. Would not the 1941-2 civilian trucks not have been sequestred by the Japs with some form of damage by 1948?
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#55
05-04-04, 19:12
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Possible answer
The 1946 1-tonner and above had an option apparently for the channel-section front bumper. However, the lack of chrome I think, with what appears to be painted grille suggests to me ex-military refurb's. GM-Holden's undertook refurbishment of ex-military trucks for further military use. I wonder if some were sold on to the NEI? They would of course be rhd.
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#56
06-04-04, 19:12
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Father of all CMP's
So David, I think we can agree that this was the KNIL Chevrolet ML Art Tractor, (though presumably without the front grill). Bart says it was produced in Australia, but that is probably half the story...
Any possible knowledge of numbers produced? So this was the father of all CMP's....! HTH Nuyt PS Finally bought Bart's WW2 directory 2ndhand in the US at Amazon last thursday and received it today. Now I still need the one pre-1940.... Last edited by nuyt; 06-04-04 at 19:26.
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#57
07-04-04, 10:09
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Not a Maple Leaf?
Nuyt, I was going to say that this was not a Maple Leaf...Maple Leaf was the heavier end of the Chevrolet range and mimicked GMC. I cannot see, but there may be, the 'MAPLE @ LEAF' badging on the side with the '@' being the Maple Leaf symbol, where 'GENERAL MOTORS TRUCK' badging would normally be. I said that I was originally going to say, but the front end seems to be identical to the Pontiac-designed 1939 GMC that was intended for the Malay States, trialled in Ontario in summer '39. Because Maple Leaf was essentially a rebadged GMC heavy truck, 2-tons and above, although I think with a different radiator grille, this would appear to be essentially a 1940 GMC 4 x 4 produced by Oshawa with imported Timken components, plus the Eaton 2-speed rear axle, similar apart from the Chevrolet engine to the GMCs that were widely exported.
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#58
09-04-04, 17:23
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KNIL Maple Leaf
Ok sorry David, if I fired too soon...
So we do not know as yet exactly which truck was the KNIL tractor then. Did you possibly already encounter some info on possible deliveries of 4x2 or 4x4 COE trucks (civilan or mil) to Priok in 1939-41? Or perhaps a batch to Holland in 1939-40? BTW total number of built overvalwagens was 90 of 100 planned (all types). Production of COE overvalwagens was continuous from end 1940 to end 1941 I think, possibly 50-60 built. Greetings, Nuyt
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#59
09-04-04, 18:48
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dutch gm book
Btw David, do you know this book:
Jong, Sicco de - Geschiedenis van General Motors General Motors Continental, Netherlands Branch - geïllustreerd met foto's - ingenaaid, linnen - goede staat General Motors A5823 - € 20,00 Found it on matildasbooks. In case you know it, is this a worthwhile book on trucks as well? Nuyt PS no connection to the seller of course
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#60
09-04-04, 18:56
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No you are correct..
Nuyt, the photo confirms that the truck was a Maple Leaf 4 x 4 ... the suggestion I made before about not badging the trucks as 'GMC's' must in my opinion be one of sensitivity in Oshawa. They trialled a GMC in 1939 which was designed by the Pontiac Plant team but for export the GM of Canada directors would have wanted to show that they supplied the trucks to the other GM subsidiaries, in Antwerpen and Java, and Australia. 'General Motors Truck' would have given the impression that the trucks were US-sourced.
I like to think that the evidence is there in black and white that the Canadians as we used to say in Round Table, 'adopted, adapted and improved' the Pontiac multi-drive truck designs. As to shipments, the late Bart Vanderveen wrote about the 4 x 4 military truck exports to GM Continental in WHEELS & TRACKS, and if I can dig out my issue from my collection in our shed then I will be able to answer further if someone does not beat me to it! I looked up my listing and there was indeed a 4 x 4 COE GMC Model..AFKX-352. The Brits bought a load of them and they would have been available for other countries. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 09-04-04 at 19:01.
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Linear Mode
