Canadian DND Veh Numbers

[Roddy de Normann]

Dear Canadian Colleagues...!

I am after help with ref Canadian DND Tank Numbers...

I am currently going through the War Diary of the 27 CAR (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regt). On 22 Aug 42, they took over several tanks from 29 CAR in less than good condition and said so in a letter to HQ 4 Can Armd Div. (Microfilm No. T-12756, ps 238 & 239)

The vehs concerned were noted as follows (some names for Kevin here !) and presumably all C Sqn.

DND 42-1-3236 (CLIVE)
DND 42-1-696 (COSEY)
DND 42-1-3240 (CLARA)
DND 42-1-3255 (COYOTE)
DND 42-1-699 (COCKY)
DND 42-1-692 (CONNIE)
DND 42-1-3237 (CLASSY)

I am presuming that these are prob early Ram tanks. To that end is it possible to deduce the CT Number from the above ? Also, how did the DND numbering system actually work ? Does the '42' rep the year of manufacture ? What do the others demonstrate...factory veh number ?

Any help from anyone would be most useful

Roddy

[cletrac (RIP)]

Those numbers are ones for service in Canada. The overseas DND numbers have nothing in common. The 42 is the year they were issued. As far as I can see the DND numbers were broken up in blocks which were assigned to various types of vehicles. The prefix (CT, CZ, CL,etc) refers to the type of vehicle and the number is unique to that vehicle. For example, CZ4206605 is a C15 truck and there wouldn't be a CT4206605 or CL4206605. I'm not sure whether the British Z and T numbers ran in the same series or not.

[John McGillivray]

SFR (27CAR) was still in Canada in August 1942. They were training on Ram tanks in Debert Nova Scotia. SAR (29CAR) left Debert on the 21st of August and set sailed for England from Halifax on the 22nd. SFR left for England on the 30th of October 1942.

Would British WD numbers have being issued to Canadian built tanks used for training in Canada?

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

Would British WD numbers have being issued to Canadian built tanks used for training in Canada?

This photo shows a Ram tank at the A-33 Training Centre, Base Borden, Ontario, with the DND number and (partially hidden by the "4" sign) is a CT number.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/save0118.jpg

(sorry for the size- can a moderator re-size on my behalf please?)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by servicepub

(sorry for the size- can a moderator re-size on my behalf please?)

Clive,

Thanks for the great picture. AFAIK, the forum software does not have an "auto resize" feature which shrinks a large picture to one´s set screen size. So I edited the picture link to a regular link and attached a resized picture to your posting.

HTH,
Hanno

[Roddy de Normann]

Hi again to all...

Thanks for the ideas...

As far as I can tell so far, we have the following...

A. DND Numbers most likely used only in Canada. If they were noted in the UK, this was prob due to not having been removed...

B. CT Numbers were applied in the factories after early agreement with UK.

C. Some vehs (Rams) sported the SKC serials in the UK, but only early on.

D. Within a short space of time all vehs conformed with overall UK numbering although as of mid-43, all Ram gun tanks added the figure T to the end of the veh serial to denote a Training Veh (and prior to issue of US Shermans)

So the questions still un-answered are:

1. What was the DND System ? How did it work ? Are there any archives remaining to help us understand it.

2. What was the SKC system ? How did it work and what knowledge also remains (although has been mentioned before here) ?

One has to now ask where would the best place be to try and answer these ques. The Canadian National Archives obviously (but unlikely to be on Microfilm ?). Also, would there be anything in the records of the various factories ? Indeed, where are these archives, in Ottawa ?

If anyone can add further to this, it would be most interesting !

Roddy


PS - There are excellent veh lists - A & B vehs - in the 27CAR war diaries - see Microfilm T-12756, Jun, Jul & Aug 43.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Not my field of knowledge per see but

CT Numbers were applied in the factories after early agreement with UK.

These were applied after allocation by the RCAOC Census Branch at Aldershot then Borden, Hants. I have no evidence that any numbers were applied in assembly depots. Vehicles had 'transit numbers' applied, prefixed 'CMD' then a sequential number in a series allocated to various parties. WD-style numbers were then painted-on where and when the vehicles were delivered.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

A. DND Numbers most likely used only in Canada. If they were noted in the UK, this was prob due to not having been removed...

DND numbers were only used in Canada. I have never seen a DND number on a UK-based Ram

B. CT Numbers were applied in the factories after early agreement with UK.

NO. WD Census numbers were accepted by CMHQ in London and the factory/DND had no say in this. The factory would be made aware of the numbering system i use overseas and would probably have applied a brass tag to the steering column (or its equivalent). They would need to know in order to ensure that vehicles could be identified for maintenance and upgrade purposes.

C. Some vehs (Rams) sported the SKC serials in the UK, but only early on.

Only the Skink sported an "SKC" number. Rams sported TKC numbers which, in my belief, represents a Tank Control Number. This TKC was used solely for the benefit of the factory. The TKC number was painted on at the factory. Once DND in Canada, or CMHQ in London, accepted the vehicle, their DND or CT number was applied. Although the TKC number should have been removed at that time it was occasionally left on.

D. Within a short space of time all vehs conformed with overall UK numbering although as of mid-43, all Ram gun tanks added the figure T to the end of the veh serial to denote a Training Veh (and prior to issue of US Shermans)

Correct. Although there are a number of photos showing Rams without the "T" suffix

So the questions still un-answered are:

1. What was the DND System ? How did it work ? Are there any archives remaining to help us understand it.

Initially the numbering represented the year, followed by the sequential number of that vehicle coming into service; 36-0-27 was the 27th vehicle in 1936; 42-1-3574 was the 13,574th vehicle in 1942. At about 1942-43 the system changed but I have been unable to determine the rationale as of yet.

2. What was the SKC system ? How did it work and what knowledge also remains (although has been mentioned before here) ?

See my comments above

One has to now ask where would the best place be to try and answer these ques. The Canadian National Archives obviously (but unlikely to be on Microfilm ?). Also, would there be anything in the records of the various factories ? Indeed, where are these archives, in Ottawa ?

I continue to try to uncover this info but the records are sparse. I invite you to look at http://www.ramtank.ca/ramcensus.htm for some information and to surf through RamTank.ca for photos.
Clive

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

... Also, would there be anything in the records of the various factories ? Indeed, where are these archives, in Ottawa ?

...

First of all, as an ex Sherbrooke Hussars, which perpetuates the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment, thank you for your interest. There is a regimental history by a man named Hall (?), published in the early 1960s. It won't list the tanks, but it will amplify or correct some of your assumptions.

The factory records would have been 'sent to Ottawa' after the war. The plants went back to civilian production and no one cared any more.

If the archives have that sort of primary record, the job will be both interesting and frustrating. Physically, most of the records are stored in Gatineau, Quebec which is across the Ottawa River from Ottawa itself. There have been attempts to collect the data from the primary records in various manufacturing histories of WWII. Col. CP Stacey was the official historian, and his footnotes and bibliographies would give you some reverse look-up guidance.

[Roddy de Normann]

Good Afternoon to all...

Canadian DND Numbers...is there a definitive answer to them ?

I was recently looking through the microfilmed war diary of the Canadian 3rd Armoured Brigade (T-10655). On 14 & 15 Aug 42 it handed over all its Ram tanks to the 4th Armoured Brigade. Each tank was refered to by both a name and the last serials of the DND number as follows:

HQ Sqn 3rd Armd Bde HO/TO HQ Sqn 4th Armd Bde

457 (Euclid)
3235 (Eunostos)

25 Armd Regt HO/TO HQ Sqn 4th Armd Bde

3238 (May)

28 Armd Regt HO/TO HQ Sqn 4th Armd Bde

673 (Barnet)

25 Armd Regt HO/TO 21 Armd Regt

462 (McGrath)
467 (Eureka)
494 (Mink)
677 (Barclay)
3232 (McGeorge)
3239 (Mole)
3249 (Mate)
3247 (Robin)

28 Armd Regt HO/TO 22 Armd Regt

471 (Banfield)
474 (Banff)
495 (Barrie)
676 (Balzac)
3241 (Brock)
3242 (Byng)
3243 (Buller)
3253 (Bruin)

29 Armd Regt HO/TO 27 Armd Regt

479 (Cobra)
692 (Connie)
698 (Coutts)
699 (Cockie)
696 (Cosy)
693 (Corny)
3237 (Classy)
3236 (Clive)
3240 (Clara)
3255 (Coyote)

Can anyone give me the full DND numbers for the above ? And can anyone give me the corresonding veh T Number ? Finally, has anyone got any paperwork/orders ref application of these numbers to the vehs ?

Many thanks in anticipation

Roddy