M38a1Cdn2, M38A1Cdn3 and M151A2 CFR range

[rob love]

There was never an authorized modification to install block heaters in any of the Jeeps. While it is possible that some military unit may have installed it, the likelihood is that the heaters were put on post-military. Most units did not have plug ins for the military trucks, and you could hardly plug a vehicle in while out in the field. Quite frankly, it would rarely get cold enough in Ontario or Alberta to need to plug in the 24 volt jeeps. They would start without a problem down to about -20. Here in Manitoba, that is a different story. Yet even here, block heaters were rarely installed in the old Jeeps. We did install frost shields on the windows though, although more so on the old 3/4 tons and duece and a halfs.

The installation of the hot water style pers heaters on the M151A2s were even an afterthought. They were originally delivered without.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

There was never an authorized modification to install block heaters in any of the Jeeps. While it is possible that some military unit may have installed it, the likelihood is that the heaters were put on post-military. Most units did not have plug ins for the military trucks, and you could hardly plug a vehicle in while out in the field. Quite frankly, it would rarely get cold enough in Ontario or Alberta to need to plug in the 24 volt jeeps. They would start without a problem down to about -20. Here in Manitoba, that is a different story. Yet even here, block heaters were rarely installed in the old Jeeps. We did install frost shields on the windows though, although more so on the old 3/4 tons and duece and a halfs.

The installation of the hot water style pers heaters on the M151A2s were even an afterthought. They were originally delivered without.

I'll take a picture when I get a chance. What your saying makes sense.

Thanks

Scotty

[Craig S.]

In response to Retsarge's post #27, CFR#07832 started out at CFB Wainwright (as a CFB Edmonton detachment asset) until 23 June 1981 when it was VMO'd to CFB Petawawa for a short time. 09 June 1982 it left for CFB London until 30 March 1984, where it then went to CFB Valcartier until disposal 04 August 1987. Listed sale price is $1184.00 on 02 Sept 1987. The work order history (for what is recorded) states all maintenance was under a base maintenance facility, so I would guess that it never wore a completely white paint scheme. Hope this gives you a bit more history on your Jeep. Cheers.

[Retsarge]

Craig,
Thank you so very much for the history info of my jeep. If you could do me 1 more favor. I think that CFB stands for Canadian Forces Base..But where is Wainwright, Petawawa, and Valcartier? What does VMO stand for? Please excuse me..Im not up on Canadian bases or military terms...I retired from the US military.. the only Canadian base I ever went to was in Goose Bay, Lab in the middle of feburary. Thanks Richard

[Craig S.]

Retsarge -

Yes, you are correct on the CFB definition. CFB Wainwright is east of Edmonton in eastern Alberta. CFB Petawawa is north-west of Canada's capitol, Ottawa in Ontario. CFB Valcartier is slightly west of Quebec City in well, Quebec. A "VMO" is a vehicle movement order, which is what happens when a vehicle is to be assigned from one unit to another. Cheers.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Craig S.

In response to Retsarge's post #27, CFR#07832 started out at CFB Wainwright (as a CFB Edmonton detachment asset) until 23 June 1981 when it was VMO'd to CFB Petawawa for a short time. 09 June 1982 it left for CFB London until 30 March 1984, where it then went to CFB Valcartier until disposal 04 August 1987. Listed sale price is $1184.00 on 02 Sept 1987. The work order history (for what is recorded) states all maintenance was under a base maintenance facility, so I would guess that it never wore a completely white paint scheme. Hope this gives you a bit more history on your Jeep. Cheers.

Where are you getting this detail? I did an Access request for my M38A1 CDN 3 70-08876 and got very little except some Toronto dates.

[Craig S.]

maple_leaf_eh -

I have access to the same records I believe some others on this site have or had access to. I'm a Veh Tech by trade and it is a database that contains info on CFR'd equipment. Surprisingly I looked up my 1952 M-37's serial number and it wasn't available, but others were still listed after all these years. Hit and miss I guess, but it was enough to make me root for more of what was available in regards to other historical records. It's something that gives the new owner a little extra information in regards to their ex-military vehicle. Could also be useful in vehicles that are soon to be auctioned off. So when my new to me LAV3 comes up, I'll check on it's maintenance records to see which of the lot are better than others .
So on Willys M38A1CDN3, Serial No. 100002, this is what I could find:
CFR was 08876
Acquired date was 01 Jan 1970 (they all are the same date for that contract it seems)
Original unit it was issued to was at CFB Toronto, but it is now listed as dormant(UIC 0124)
The only Work Orders listed are from 28 Mar 1977 to 14 Apr 1983
Up until 30 Sept 1978 it seems the work was done by Base Maint CFB Toronto, of which the vehicle was an asset.
Then until 14 Apr 1983 the work was done by maybe the same section but the Jeep was now an asset of The Queens York Rangers, 1st American Regiment RCAC.
Listed are a total of 42 Corrective Vists, or it was in the shop for various faults/preventative maint. 42 times (officially)
As of 14 April 1983 the odometer had 64736 miles on it.
VMO No. DP350151 06 May 1987 to CFB Toronto for disposal.
Last holding notice of 22 August 1988, but the disposal date is listed as 22 Oct 1987 and that the sale price was $829.00. Perhaps there was a paperwork error in the dates?

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Hi Craig,

Can you work your magic on this CFR - 67-07800?

Thnx,

Clive

[Retsarge]

Craig,
You have given me more of my jeeps history in 1week, than I was able to find out on my own in the 4 years that I have had it. I found out that CFB Wainwright was/is a military basic training base. CFB Petawawa is home to Canada's Special Forces.
CFB London has been shut down, and CFB Valcartier is the main logistics supply center.
All very interesting for the jeeps history. Do your maintenance history reports possibly list the army units it was assigned to at Wainwright, Petawawa, or Valcartier??
Also is there any educated guess as to how many of the 800 67/68 Cdn2, or 596 70/71 Cdn3 jeeps are still alive and running out there?? Thanks

Richard
1967 M38A1 Cdn2
7105 96879
CFR 67-07832

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Craig S.

maple_leaf_eh -

I have access to the same records I believe some others on this site have or had access to. I'm a Veh Tech by trade and it is a database that contains info on CFR'd equipment.

Since your data includes workorders, I am assuming you are using a Loomis/plan expert archive. The database I was using was the DSVPM site on the intranet. It does not go into nearly the detail you have.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Retsarge

Craig,
You have given me more of my jeeps history in 1week, than I was able to find out on my own in the 4 years that I have had it. I found out that CFB Wainwright was/is a military basic training base. CFB Petawawa is home to Canada's Special Forces.
CFB London has been shut down, and CFB Valcartier is the main logistics supply center.
All very interesting for the jeeps history. Do your maintenance history reports possibly list the army units it was assigned to at Wainwright, Petawawa, or Valcartier??
Also is there any educated guess as to how many of the 800 67/68 Cdn2, or 596 70/71 Cdn3 jeeps are still alive and running out there?? Thanks

Richard
1967 M38A1 Cdn2
7105 96879
CFR 67-07832

There were no field units in Wainwright aside from the PPCLI battle school (not really a field unit). Wainwright is a place where units go to use the training area. There was quite a stock of vehicles held there to be issued as required to visiting units.

Hard to say how many of the Cdn2 and Cdn 3s still exist. The attrition rates were fairly high for the Cdn2 while the Cdn3 held up a bit better. I have a list somewhere that gives the total numbers of Jeeps still in inventory in the early 80s.

Out this way the Jeeps are not as prone to rust as in the Eastern provinces. As a result, all the Jeeps are hiding out here somewhere, even the early 50s models. There has been some poaching of our rust free jeeps to other areas.

[Craig S.]

Since your data includes workorders, I am assuming you are using a Loomis/plan expert archive. The database I was using was the DSVPM site on the intranet. It does not go into nearly the detail you have.

The info I've given here comes from EDR Viewer Production. It is where the majority of info I could find in regards to the old CAR numbers and modern CFR numbers come from. I have come across a few other types of info, but it's more along the lines of cost analysis for each piece of equipment over that equipments lifetime, parts cost, REL's, literature, etc. So far I can only find the parent units of the equipment but not the end user say, ie. I would know that LSVW 93-99770 belonged to L-Coy,2 RCR, but not that it was the MRT for Components Section of Maintenance Pl., C/S 88U. C/S's are not registered on any of the database records I've found. In the maintenance world we deal in CFR's whereas the Infanteers know the vehicles by the actual c/s. The database also goes by the vehicle CFR and then you have to look at each to get the Serial Number of that vehicle, which means sometimes going through each one to get it. There may be some way to do it by Serial Number, but I haven't found out how.
Lately I have begun to copy complete listings of older SMP vehicles I can by years, CFR's, ECC, etc. At least then I can relatively check a CFR for as an example,CFR#37735. It turns out that it is a "1978 Truck,Cargo, MLVW,2.5 Ton, U.S. Army, M-35". This is the only one for that year and judging by what little info there is and the "X" prefix to the ERN, I am thinking it was a evaluation model for what we based our MLVW's on as we know them.

Can you work your magic on this CFR - 67-07800?

Here is what I can find -
1967 07800 M38A1CDN2
Serial Number 7105-96847
Acquired 01 Jan 67
Original UIC was CFB/ASU Montreal
It also states that on the same date it became an asset of LETE(Land Engineering Test Establishment)
30 May 1985 it was VMO'd to 25 CFSD
28 Oct 1986 a VMO No DP357374 for disposal was cut
Disposal date of 11 Jan 1988 for $2692.00 is stated and the last holding notice was 10 Feb 1988 as serviceable.

There is no information as to Work Orders at all and that may be due to it's LETE heritage. Test bed for modifications perhaps? Judging by the sale price it sounds like it was kept in better condition than most. Wouldn't it be great to get all the actual mechanics paperwork from the inspections and other records that follow the vehicles until they leave a unit? Unfortunately I'm guessing they end up in a blue recycle bin nowadays.
My apologies for the long winded explanation, but this will give you some info on how this info is kept and also I guess, discarded. Cheers.

[Retsarge]

Hi,
On the American M38A1 jeeps, there is a data plate located on the wheelwell directly behind the passenger's seat. Is there also supposed to be one on the Canadian Cdn2 jeeps as well? If yes, how does it read..Kaiser..Willys.. or what? Thanks

Richard M
M38A1Cdn2
CFR 67-07832

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Retsarge

Hi,
On the American M38A1 jeeps, there is a data plate located on the wheelwell directly behind the passenger's seat. Is there also supposed to be one on the Canadian Cdn2 jeeps as well? If yes, how does it read..Kaiser..Willys.. or what? Thanks

Richard M
M38A1Cdn2
CFR 67-07832

On a Cdn 2 it was Kaiser of Windsor. I likely have one floating about in the shed, I'll confirm today.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Craig S.

It also states that on the same date it became an asset of LETE(Land Engineering Test Establishment)

This actually had "LETE" painted, albeit very faded, on front and rear bumpers. The jeep appears to have all of the modification screw-holes drilled, including those for the GPMG mount, LAW M-72 mount, decontamination bottle, radios, etc....
Thnx for the info.
Clive

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

Lastly is the M151A2 (1974/possibly 75?) range which runs from 74-09096 until 09860. This only accounts for 764 units, and differs significantly from the 935 quantity given in the M151a2 data summary. If anyone has evidence of a different block of CFR numbers used on the M151s, let me know and I can verify it.

I think we accidentally found the missing 171 x M151A2 CFRs....

Eric B, Steve H and I were going through some of Erics old Militia photos and Sentinel Mags etc. In the photos were at least one M151A2 that had a different CFR block from the usual 09*** block. Eric will have to post up the number as I forgot to write it down, but it did not begin with 0. My only fear is that range of numbers may have already been re-allocated to newer vehicles.

Scotty B

[Craig S.]

After reading that last post on the missing 151's, I checked the sheets of all the available CFR's I had printed off. Of course I didn't notice - but yes there are a block of numbers that start with 22350 to 22519. There are also x4 M151A2's that are CFR'd as follows - 63558, 77264, 78180 and 78184. Im' not going back to the shop until Monday, so I'll check the Serial Numbers then. I still only come up with 934. I'll recheck that as well. Cheers.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Craig S.

After reading that last post on the missing 151's, I checked the sheets of all the available CFR's I had printed off. Of course I didn't notice - but yes there are a block of numbers that start with 22350 to 22519. There are also x4 M151A2's that are CFR'd as follows - 63558, 77264, 78180 and 78184. Im' not going back to the shop until Monday, so I'll check the Serial Numbers then. I still only come up with 934. I'll recheck that as well. Cheers.

The policy is (was) that is a license plate was lost or stolen, the truck would have been issued a new CFR number. It was not always done, but occasionally. This may be where the 4 oddball numbers came from. However, there should be 4 missing numbers from the normal block to make up for them.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Craig S.

maple_leaf_eh -

I have access to the same records I believe some others on this site have or had access to. I'm a Veh Tech by trade and it is a database that contains info on CFR'd equipment. ...
So on Willys M38A1CDN3, Serial No. 100002, this is what I could find: CFR was 08876

Great thanks for the help. The Base Transport guy in Rottawa found only a little information. Must have not been trying as hard, or was as familiar with the screens.

If mine is SN 100002, and the CFR is one more than 75, I'm going to tell myself it is the second vehicle delivered on the contract., assuming the numbering began at 08875.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Great thanks for the help. The Base Transport guy in Rottawa found only a little information. Must have not been trying as hard, or was as familiar with the screens.

If mine is SN 100002, and the CFR is one more than 75, I'm going to tell myself it is the second vehicle delivered on the contract., assuming the numbering began at 08875.

Better go read the first post on this thread again. Cdn3 series started at 08500 and went up from there. The 100000 serial number was not the first on this contract...there were plenty in the 99XXX range.

[Retsarge]

Rob,
If indeed you do have a data plate in your shed, and it is a spare, and you are willing to part with it. I would love to put one back, on my jeep, and fill an empty spot. Let me know how much you want for it, and I will send it to you. Thanks

Richard M
M38A1Cdn2
CFR 67-07832

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Retsarge

Rob,
If indeed you do have a data plate in your shed, and it is a spare, and you are willing to part with it. I would love to put one back, on my jeep, and fill an empty spot. Let me know how much you want for it, and I will send it to you. Thanks

Richard M
M38A1Cdn2
CFR 67-07832

There was a fellow at a OMVA show in Ottawa two yrs ago with a whole library of different blank data plates. I think it was Brian Asbury.

[Eric B]

My 1967 M38A1 Cdn has SN 7105-97372 with a of CFR 67-08105. It was a signals vehicle in Petawawa, then Kingston. I have the holding unit history only.

According to the copy of the page printout there should also be a
modification history, rebuild history, vmo history, work order history, ECC history and CFR No history.

My M151A2 is SN 44004 CFR 74-09235. It was used as a signals vehicle in Calgary and then moved to Petawawa. I know no other data for this vehicle.
The original data plate has the contract number printed onto it.Therefore if you buy a repro plate you will have to stamp this in. These are avilable out of the USA. I do not beleive that Brian Asbury has these in stock.

I also came across a photo of an M151A2 with a CFR of 63558, which i drove at CFB Valcartier. I beleive it was a Montreal district pool vehicle or a Black Watch (RHR) of Canada Unit vehicle.

It had the 5/4 ton style tires on it rather than the US non directionals.

Thanks
Eric

[Eric B]

Hello again

I was referring to the M151A2 data plates. Brian Asbury did have copies of the CDN M38A1 CDN 1 and 2 data plate sets fo sale. I have a set for when i rebuild mine.

Thanks

Eric

[Retsarge]

Hi,
The data plate that I was talking to Rob Love about, is the one that goes on the wheelwell behind the passenger seat. I have a blank spot there on my jeep, and need to find one to replace it....Let me know if anyone has one. Thanks

Richard M

[Craig S.]

Eric B -

Here's a bit more to add to that info you've already got on CFR 09235.
Acquired 01 Jan 1974 and went to 1 CMBG HQ & Sig Sqn until 15 Mar 1984.
15 Mar 1984 it went to CFB Calgary,UIC 0109(I forgot to check the actual unit).
On 19 April 1984 it was returned to 1CMBG HQ & Sig Sqn until 26 June 1984.
Once again it went back to Calgary until 16 May 1985. Same UIC as previously sent.
From 16 May 1985 to 26 July 1985 it worked out of CFB Suffield, UIC 0142. The last unit was in CFB Petawawa, UIC 0107. The disposal date is 13 Jan 1987. VMO No. DP357677 17 Nov 1986 with the Last Holding Notice 11 Dec 1987.
The Work Order History is dated from 30 June 1977 to 30 Sept 1983. The work would have been by Base Maint pers in Suffield and Calgary most likely, and by the Service Bn for 1 CMBG. A total of 38 corrective visits were accounted for in this period. A total of 12 Modifications were completed on this vehicle, but there is no info on what they were, just pub. ref. numbers.
Hope that gives you some more history of your truck. Cheers.

[Eric B]

Hello Craig

Thanks for the information. One can never have too much history on one's vehicle.

The Publication orders of Mods would definetly be of interest as it should relate to the orders, which are floating around out there. I lent mine to a friend and am waiting for them to be returned.

It would be the roll cage, seatbelt etc. Mine has an M38A1 spare tire carrier, one M38A1 rim and two of the tires have been cut into to create a different tread pattern.

I also drove 09722 and 09569, and M38A1 08709 which should be pool vehicles out of Montreal. The one i provided earlier was the one assigned to the Black Watch.

Thanks
Eric

[Dparker]

I literally pulled a relic out of the woods last night. It has been sitting for 15-20years- owner cannot recollect details. Vandals set a fire and burned top, seats and melted dash board instruments and steering wheel. Also at one point someone had stolen seat frames, tail light lenses, front b.o lights. As well many snakes have made their home under the hood.
Anyway the good news is that I inflated the tires and the tubes held up. The brakes wern't siezed so it rolled right out.
I'm looking for any info on the service history of this vehicle. The info I have is as follows:
Painted across dash 70-08624
stenciled on left side of body A24
MFR serial # 99836
date 12-70
contract # MEO 0058

other aspects that may help
side mounted spare fwd of passenger door
steel grate mounted over right side reat bumperett
Looks as though something was mounted on rear body corners- only drill holes remain
realtive thin metal casewith lid afixed to rear right interior fender wall.

any help would be appreciated

[rob love]

Sounds like it may have been a signals cable layer truck. They had the tire and steps you are talking about. They also had a ladder mounted down one side, and cable reel and boom.

[Dparker]

It also has two brackets on rear crossmember with bolt holes on the horizontal which could be an attaching point for some sort of device or attachment- perhaps the boom you are referring to. Are there any photographs of vehicle on the web or in some achive that you could direct me?