|
|
#1
20-04-04, 20:36
|
||||
|
||||
Britain & the EU - What's Happening?
Guys, it's time to bring us all up to date on this whole EU thing. It's all over the news today that your Uncle Tony is going to put forth a public referendum on whether to accept and endorse the upcoming EU constitution - and I am presuming this includes the sacrifice of the UKP as well as a degree of political independence, in favour of domination by the lords of the EU (France & Germany?).
Just what's happening here? What's the REAL story? If this goes through, does it mean the practical end of Great Britain as an independent entity? In that respect, are the Yurrupeens about to win through the vote what they couldn't win militarily for the last millenium? Enquiring minds want to know your opinions, and those you perceive as being from the proverbial 'man on the street'. I personally find this both scary and fascinating at the same time. Cheers, Geoff
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support 
|
|
#2
20-04-04, 21:03
|
||||
|
||||
|
Personally I just find it scary. I'm just hope the British people have enough sense to vote against giving away our sovereignty. I presume that tony is going for the referendum because he thinks he won't be able to push it through the house of commons. The only good thing about this is the ribbing he's getting from Micheal Howard (the leader of the opposition)-It reminded me just how entertaining politics can be.
I really can't understand why anybody in this country would want closer ties with europe-let alone what is being suggested now. We've seem to put more money in than we get out as it is and we've all heard about the price increases brought in when the euro was introduced in the rest of the EU. If Britain need's to have closer ties with any country,it should be our old allies (as in real allies) America, Australia, Canada etc). Sorry Rant over, but this really is a worrying situation.
|
|
#3
20-04-04, 22:47
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Two things occur to me... first, for insight, what are the perceptions and experiences of our other European members on the EU as a whole and how it's affected their societies, socially and economically? Second, and given that NATO is basically redundant now - especially in light of the EU - and given the power shifts and changing pressures in the world since 9/11 - I've begun to wonder why there shouldn't be a new emerging organization perhaps called CESCO - the Coalition of English Speaking Countries. Doug, as per your last comment, it seems we're all in this together, politically, militarily and financially, and with certain lines being drawn both culturally and economically, does it not make sense? Membership, of course, would not necessarily be restricted to the countries you mention, but the founding members would have to go out of their way to ensure another bureaucratic and political fiasco such as the current UN (or for that matter the Commonwealth) was not its ultimate evolution, and that our shared values would be maintained and built upon. What do you think? Too difficult because of cultural diversity and the great altar of political correctness? Or emminently practical?
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support
|
|
#4
20-04-04, 23:49
|
|||
|
|||
The Last Stand
Ah…….. well you may ask Geoff
Yet another subject that McSpool and I ventured into after a few beers on a wet Beltring morning…….. All in the sprit of On tonte cordial you realise Let me say this, the Oxford CMP crew will declare a state of emergency and will man the barricades if the vote goes with the Aye’s.. We will raise the Union flag from the workshop along with our much prized war time replica Canadian flag. UDI will be declared. As Q bloke for the crew I estimate we could live on my cooking and the supply of Bully and beans in never ending combinations for at least four years, there’s a pub just down the lane so we would be OK for liquid refreshment when the tea ran out. In short up yours Tony and up EU as well ,( we like the Dutch.) To be serious for a moment Geoff, political awareness in this country by the “man in the street” is woefully lacking on this subject. It ranges from apathy, that most dangerous of saboteurs to don’t know don’t care. Voting returns for elections are on the decline year on year here. Speaking for my self……..( and I want to stress this is my own view I am not speaking for OCMPC as a whole) I am concerned at the out come. If the vote is to embrace the constitution it will not mean the total demise of Britain, or the UK as we are now encouraged to think of ourselves. But it will lead to yet another serious erosion of our independence and National identity. For most people under forty this will not have vast impact, they are brought up to believe that we are part of Europe and that our salvation is in a Europe without boarders and with a unified currency and policy. My late Farther and most of his generation gave seven years of his young life….. and many gave their lives, to fight for freedom side by side with our Allies and cousins from the then Dominions,……….. each one of you reading this now will have relatives who were involved from those countries. It leads me to ask the question what was it all for?, this is not to belittle the collective endeavour but rather to question what we, as a nation, have done with the hard won peace, I think we owe you who came to our aid better for your sacrifice. I am not a political activist in any shape or form, in fact I’d rather not get involved, I want to be left alone to plod on with my various restoration projects. The EU is however an ever present threat to those of us who restore vintage transport be it Military, Commercial Steam or Car. The Brussels law machine seeks self justification at every opportunity in an bewildering display new legislation to prevent people like me carrying out what I consider to be a historically important duty (at, I may add totally my own expense). All must be swept away in a tide of Euro funded politically correct Euro greenness. In short Geoff we are going under for the second time, and I fear that this time you guys will not come to our aid as you did 60 years ago. I may be forced to eventually seek refuge in your country as a refugee from the Euro madness that is about to engulf us all. What say you Richard N ? Sorry grim stuff just my age and time of day I guess Pete 
|
|
#5
21-04-04, 01:07
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: The Last Stand
Quote:
Well said ! The EU will not work, too many different countries cultures, languages, etc. It will be like the USSR was and that ended in a big bust up. Trading is OK, that is what we were led to believe it was all about. Our so called leaders are only after their own personal ends, to get on the "gravy train" and stuff everyone else. If they put more effort in to running our country instead of poking there noses in other countries business, we would be better off. Well thats my say, and I'm off to bed now, goodnight from me! Richard
|
|
#6
22-04-04, 03:27
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Last Stand
Quote:
In fairness then I think asking the question here will get a skewed but concerned and uniform response since it is likely the gathered UK people will be of a single mind because of their specialist interest and the broader knowledge that stems from it. As I have previously mentioned, GWB did ask me at one Beltring, probably the last ten quid jobbie, why everyone he spoke to was dead set against, but the govt seemed hell bent on full membership with all that brings. I had no answer. Many vets I meet, and they'll tell you at Overlord Geoff, whatever did they fight a war for ? We now have the Fourth Reich. I am very suspicious that the govt view is that so many vets are not around now to protest severely and sound the voice of sensibility that the larger mass of population either has been soaked in official line propaganda or couldn't care less so long as its pub on Friday and football on Saturday. The apathy about the interminable euro political dross is a complete yawn to the man in the street and rates along with Vogon Constructor Captain's Poetry for boredom. This is insidious and extremely dangerous as it will go through by default. I am extremely nervous about political discussions in these specialist forums, it is just a load of wasted ones and noughts ordure for the world at large and could lead to some very heated arguments; for this reason I am also acutely aware that the terms of my Ham radio license make it illegal for any discussion of sex, religion or politics, this is a common world-wide trait too, for good reason. Pete has articulated the situation precisely and I would not add or detract anything from that. You will note the URL added to my signature and all I can say is that UK voters should take a moment to review the mass of information therein and remember that Euro elections are not the UK style first past the post scenarios but true proportional representation, go and vote. I can also tell you that at this later stage of life, I have actually paid money and am a card carrying member of a political party, you figure it out; nuff said. Here's a contentious point, IF we need to join something, then why not become the 51st US State, we do more trade with N America than the EU, we speak the same language (very nearly) and have been in a very close political alliance for a very long time, when the sharp intake of breath subsides, just think on a moment. Don't get me started Geoff, thankfully its 02:18 and after holding the SMVT meeting tonight in my new-found capacity, I am a bit tired, however, after touching the exposed nerve Mr.Ball-Spinning, for which I am most grateful, this will need another mug of (hot) tea and a ciggy before the sandman comes. Yours, simmering, R.
|
|
#7
22-04-04, 03:50
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Re: The Last Stand
Quote:
 There's always something missed; I note, although its a very tiny sample, that perhaps the respondents like me, Pete and Richard F are of the immediate post-war generation. We'd have been brought up on quite different values and had virtually pre-war semi severe schooling and discipline, fine. Now I am mightily encouraged that Dougie, who I am thinking is of the next generation at least, has the nous and CDF to see through the official hype and smokescreen so coming to a considered decision without being led like sheep. Mightily encouraging it is and perhaps the light at the end of the tunnel isn't the oncoming train I fear. We could be sowing the seeds to reap the wirlwind, but I wont be here then, people like my girly-fuzz daughter will have the hassle. Oh where's Enoch Powell when you need him? R. (Still simmering nicely)
|
|
#8
22-04-04, 10:37
|
||||
|
||||
|
Oh goody, the chance to upset a few people...
Like everything else, it depends entirely on your viewpoint. There's stuff we will agree on, stuff we wont agree on, and stuff we know nothing about.
In no particular order; I view Britain as part of Europe, and the emergence of a single E currency as entirely inevitable. Not 'if' but 'when' At the end of the current century there will probably only be three significant currencies in circulation, the Dollar, Yen / Yuan, and the Euro. Note that the Euro will be big, but probably the smallest of the three. Dont like it ? tough....  The most vociferous opponents to the Euro are those in London who make a living charging us commission to change or Pounds into whatever and back again, and the day the last currency-trader can't make a profit can't come soon enough.Politicians ? dont like 'em, can't trust 'em. Trouble is the Euro-politicians will do at least as good a job of running us as that bunch of XXXX's in Westminster will. For the last few hundred years the sole job of that bunch in Westminster has been screwing the rest of the world (including the rest of Britain) to keep the SE of England in a cushy lifestyle. Just every now and then they take a few years off to do something worthwhile like jump up and down on people that are bent on world domination, but then it's back to business as usual. The European Constitution ? well, it'll be big, complicated, and the man in the street will know little if anything about it. I predict it will contain exactly as many good points as bads one. I could bang on about the working time directive (junior doctors breath a sigh of relief) or workers rights (trades unionists smile broadens) but I'm sure opponents could quote equally relevant negative points... I hereby predict that there will be lots of meaningless chat, arguments and political bickering. Either it will all happen in the short term and we will have the constitution and the Euro in the four-year lifetime of the next Parliament, or there will be a hiccup and it'll take one or two more four-year terms before whoever happens to be nominally running the country caves in and joins. Me? worry? hah. I'm saving small piles of Dollars and Euros even as we speak, and Sean tells me that if you can convince the Canadian government you are a nice person they will let you live out your natural span in a nice isolated bit somewhere. I did note that Geoff and co dont seem to have a higher regard for Canadian politicians than we do for most of the UK ones. There we go (ducks, and runs for cover donning flameproof attire)
__________________
Gordon, in Scotland
|
|
#9
22-04-04, 18:00
|
||||
|
||||
|
Gordon from Scotland-your surname isn't Brown is it?
|
|
#11
23-04-04, 06:23
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Oh goody, the chance to upset a few people...
Quote:
Now of course he's encouraged to assert his national identity and fly the Scottish flag, whereas for us English its either assumed you're a football (soccer) hooligan or a far right xenophobic fascist to fly The Cross of St. George. Then of course Geoff you can engage Gordon with the Midlothian Question, his MPs vote in the Scottish Parliament and at Westminster, English MPs may only attend Westminster. I still feel too the shame and embarrassment about our treatment of the Aussies and Kiwis, having sent most of their young guys here at our command almost, so we can mangle them in a war they really didn't have a direct hand in; we then find a new friend in the EU and cast them off economically at a stroke. Some thanks and respect. At least his Godness Blair has now stood on TV and stated that if the people say no, then no it is and they wont do interminable referenda re-runs until they get the answer they want. Bit of a U turn here just admitting to a referendum. Lets have some. R. English subject of HM Queen. Not a citizen of the EU. Not a UK citizen. Not a British citizen. Far right xenophobic fascist. Allegedly.
|
|
#12
23-04-04, 08:53
|
||||
|
||||
|
Can't help but wondering what the Royal position is on all this?
JD
__________________
Here we go in bull low, stuck in four wheel drive....
|
|
#13
23-04-04, 09:51
|
||||
|
||||
|
Royal Position?
Royal position ? - dignified silence if they have any sense....
-------------------------------- I have no problem with English nationalism at all, in fact I think if we'd had a bit more over the years the UK might be a bit more balanced. The 'powers-that-be' in SE England have been unbelievably unkind to the Colonies / Commonwealth / Empire, to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, but also to vast chunks of England that are not fortunate enough to be in the south-east. I've seen as much hardship and indutrial dereliction in the north-east of England as I've ever seen in Scotland. I think unsatisfactory performance by Westminster is one factor that has to be addressed and the fundemental difference in position between Richard and myself is that I'd prefer to be a small part of a large Europe, whereas Richard appears to be more in favour of the whole of the UK being less attached to Europe. I'm not in favour of Scottish MPs voting in Westminster on issues that only involve England, but since most Westminster work affects the whole of the UK I don't see it as a huge problem. Perhaps the answer there would be a similar representative assembly just for England ? I think we could still agree that the governance in the UK leaves a lot to be desired though, and I might suggest that it compares very unfavourably with most Scandinavian countries, for example. Gordon (alledged Dodge owner and Sno-Cat enthusiast, but I like Stollies too, just haven't got enough spanners)
__________________
Gordon, in Scotland
|
|
#14
23-04-04, 10:59
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I'm no expert but it sounds like a fundamental constitutional change and I can see ramifications for the Commonwealth noting that some sub-continents did recently vote to stay in and keep therefore the Union Flag as part of their national flag. You will note His Holiness Blair and all the PMs refer to "our people" whereas HM Queen refers to "my people". It is also apparent that HMQ still takes a very keen interest in government quite apart from the formal weekly meeting with the PM of the time; she does ask some tough and searching questions especially as it's not law until the bit of paper has "Elizabeth II R" signed on the bottom then the blob of red sealing wax with the Royal Cipher pressed in it using the stamp she keeps in the office desk. We will not know perhaps ever, but the sudden adout face of diety Blair in this instance does smack of someone of even greater importance hauling him up by a short turn. "Enough is enough, you go and ask _my_ people first." Hmmmmmmmm. R.
|
|
#16
23-04-04, 11:54
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Surely you meant....
Quote:
|
|
#17
23-04-04, 12:19
|
||||
|
||||
|
Familiar argument
I dunno. AWOL for months and the same subjects are still being discussed.
My view on this will never be changed. We have suffered from being in the EU so far. As far as trade/business is concerned the old EFTA ( European Free Trade Association ) was better. I got a snotty email back from Labour Party HQ when I sent them a message reminding them that they (and other governments) have already surrendered our judicial system ( if a crook doesn't like his sentence he goes to the European Court and they let him off) and our weights & measures. Surrenering any part of our constitution, including the above, is treason and should be dealt with accordingly - entry to the Tower of London early one morning for an appointment with a block of wood and a sharp axe (would the threat of a blunt axe be more effective?).
__________________
Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf)
|
|
#18
23-04-04, 20:36
|
|||
|
|||
|
Thought for the Day
There was nothing wrong with the concept of "Common Market" even if the management left a little to be desired.
There is everything wrong with the concept and management of "European Union". One makes good economic sense the other is a travesty of centralised control. Pete
|
|
#19
23-04-04, 21:29
|
||||
|
||||
|
It was suggested on the new's today, that the only reason tony has agreed to a referendum is that he knows that if he'd tried to force it through parliament it would have been shot down in flames by the house of lord's. (which funnily enough he's been trying to de-fang for some time now)
What I don't get is that Scot's were all for devolving power from the rest of the UK, but wanted to join up with europe. (I don't paticularly mean you gordon, I used to live in Edinburgh and it was a fairly regular topic of conversation)
|
|
#20
23-04-04, 22:35
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Familiar argument
Quote:
Treason it is, still punishable by death (Well executed Mr Pierpoint) along with arson in HM Dockyard and sedition, IRA and others please note. However, you may not agree with the instance, but here's an illustration of govt duplicity or underhandedness. Just before retirement, Betty Boothroyd as speaker ruled that Magna Carta is the current bill of human rights and exists correctly on our statute books. Magna Carta allows that nothing legally held by any person may be forcibly removed by any other, to do so is treason by means of a basic rights violation upheld by the govt of the land. The pro-gun lobby therefore started an action under this to show the illegal removal and disarming of the population in the 1920's and specifically raised a legal action against Jack Straw the Home Sec for the recent forced removal of hand guns being treasonable under the provisions of Magna Carta. The govt simply said that such old laws of 1215 were not applicable, so no case to answer. Nothing like making it up as you go along is there. R.
|
|
#21
23-04-04, 22:38
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Thought for the Day
Quote:
Very commendable. R.
|
|
#22
23-04-04, 23:00
|
|||
|
|||
|
One more for the pot
Thank you Richard, most gracious,
I'll lower the level of the debate slightly with something else that just sprang to mind. We all know the Brits old lament about our American cousins during the war which went “Over sexed, over paid and over here" Well how about this for a 21C EU equilant "Over taxed, over stressed and over crowded" I thought of that just now and it made me grimace through the tears. I must sign off now or the EU political correctness police will have a tap on my modem. I will be condemned to eating Muesli and driving sensible Euro greeny cars that do 80 miles to the gallon and look like roller skates. I’m off down the pub in my gas gobbling pick up !!! Toodal Pip ! Pete
|
|
#23
23-04-04, 23:40
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: One more for the pot
Quote:
Finnish special edition: Chapter 3 Volume 26 P. 0207 Swedish special edition: Chapter 3 Volume 26 P. 0207 as an illustration of stupidity. See: EU SPEC Make special note of the requirements for cucumber straightness: "be well shaped and practically straight (maximum height of the arc: 10 mm per 10 cm of length of the cucumber)" Consider the multitude of meetings around the EU gravy-train beano that were needed to write and agree this gem of legislation, remember that similar verbose ramblings are to be had on every topic under the sun and including the squareness of strawberries and a huge tome on the specification of duck eggs. Even the most junior member of MLU should resist the crashing urge to read the outpourings of the EU commissions, one lifetime is wholly inadequate; many years ago it took just 18 articulated (semi) 40 ton GVW trucks to move the EU paperwork from one meeting location to the next, where we're at now is incomprehensible. R.
|
|
#24
23-04-04, 23:47
|
||||
|
||||
|
EU
Another fact on the EU.
Most of the politicians elected to the European Parliament have failed in their own parliaments..... witness the Kinnocks, ex-leader of the Labour Party and his wife, now reputedly enjoying millionaire status at the expense of the taxpayer. Can anyone think of a single thing that they and others have done to actually earn this? I can't.
__________________
Wear a poppy - support our Veterans and the Royal British Legion A wasted youth is better by far than a wise and productive old age!! (Meatloaf) Last edited by DaveCox; 23-04-04 at 23:58.
|
|
#25
24-04-04, 08:59
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: EU
Quote:
Dave hasn't mentioned the unratified EU expense account. The media took the lid off this a little while ago, the EU pays MEPs whatever they ask for in expenses, so it transpires all and sundry claim first class everything but actually go steerage and B&B, the difference gets pocketed untaxed. EU egg on face took on the proportions of the EU egg and butter mountain, so generated to keep the supply down and price high. Did they change anything? Did they buggery. All aboard the talking-shop gravy train, fill your boots. R.
|
|
#26
24-04-04, 09:29
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: One more for the pot
Quote:
None of us have the accreditation and highway transportation certificate for hazardous materials, in this instance asbestos. Chev owners are favoured with just one head gasket, Ford owners are in deep do-do with a double offence. I'll probably have an appointment with Mr Albert Peirpoint and the final drop since I have a head gasket the size of a decent table keeping the eight holes of the Rt. Hon Charles Rolls and Sir Henry Royce's finest from puffing into each other, plus eight little buggers in the exhaust header and another six in the wheel hub seal carriers. And you can stop grinning McSpool, it applies to Edam & Gouda Land too. I blame you entirely Spinny-Ball for winding me up, you wait until I get you here next month, you're on water only and no ciggies. The bare faced cheek of it, bloody colonials winding me up, I'm off to service the club box trailer with some basic Anglo-Saxon and have a whinge at Ballard. R.
|
|
#27
24-04-04, 15:55
|
||||
|
||||
|
Bare faced Colonial cheeks
Quote:
Quote:
|
|
#28
24-04-04, 19:49
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ciggies
Quote:
Under the EU green house emissions directive 1212121212125A Revision 256 they are to be banned for all no EU members while visiting EU collective countries. Sorry Sunray, Pete 
|
|
#29
24-04-04, 22:07
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Ciggies
Quote:
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support
|
|
#30
24-04-04, 22:16
|
||||
|
||||
|
Re: Re: One more for the pot
Quote:
__________________
SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
