Crooked white star

[cliff]

On a lot of photos it shows the White Star recognition symbol (of WW2) on Canadian vehicles in Europe at a slight angle.

Was this Common practice or just on the occasional vehicle?

Also I have seen both the star and roundel used as air recognision on the roof of vehicles in Europe.

Which was more common on Canadian vehicles, the roundel or the white star?

cheers
Cliff

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by cliff
On a lot of photos it shows the White Star recognition symbol (of WW2) on Canadian vehicles in Europe at a slight angle.

Cliff,

I believe this is was the Canadian soldiers way of objecting to have the "symbol of US forces" on their vehicles. Some were applied with point downwards.

No doubt the Canadians on this forum have got a fuller story on this.

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Steve Guthrie found an interesting tidbit about this subject in 2002 - see the thread White Star on the old MLU forum. Here's hoping Steve can repost the drawing attached to the instructions here...

H.


Source: http://www.mapleleafup.net/vehicles/.../wreck_04.html

[Steve Guthrie]

Hello Hanno

Here it is

Steve

SECRET
2D/9-6-2
HQ 2 Cdn Inf Div
16 April 44

VEH MARKINGS
Recognition marks
White stars five pointed

1. The m/n recognition marks will be painted on all ‘A’ and ‘B’ vehs, SP guns and mob mech eqpt. RAF and vehs and eqpt (marked with the Geneva cross) will not carry the white star.

2. All amd vehs (include. SP guns, carriers, half tracks, trucks 15-cwt 4x4 personnel, White scout cars) will carry the recognition marks on the top only in accordance with para 4 below.

3. All vehs and eqpts other than armd vehs will carry the sign on the top and both sides in accordance with paras 4 and 5 below.

4. On the top of the veh or eqpt the mark will be painted on the largest horizontal or near horizontal plane surface. It will NOT be carried on the cab over the co-dvrs seat (to be holed for AALMG). It will not be carried in a posn that is liable to be covered with stores, stowage or eqpts.

5. On sides it will be carried on vertical or near vertical plane surfaces NOT usually covered by fittings and eqpts.

6. Size

(a) Top - as large as possible but not less than one foot measured from center to outside of band.

(b) Sides - as large as possible but not less than 3 ins measured from center to tips

(c) If space does not permit the above minimus sizes no marks will be carried

7. Requirements for white lead GS paint (Cat. HA0293) will be submitted by units to the ADOS office. Indents will indicate the purpose for which the paint is required, number of vehs to be painted and minimum requirements for paint. No background paint will be issued.

8. The present recognition (Red White Red) marks used on AFV’s will be removed.

9. Appx

10 Recogniton marks will NOT be painted on canvas, canopies or tarps

(Signature)
(J H Adams) Maj
DAQMG
for AA & QMG 2 Cdn Inf Div

Note The circular surrounding band is 4 ins wide. It will be added on TOPS ONLY, NOT SIDES.

[centurion]

The Churchill AVRE at Bovingdon appears to have a crooked star on its turret top much as per the Canadian vehicles. Perhaps the dislike of having a US marking was shared.
Picture from Bovingdon web site enclosed

[cliff]

Thanks for the answers guys. I really appreciate it.

cheers
Cliff

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See this interesting pic on eBay: WWII Allied STAR ID Canada Post Truck Pre-D-Day Photo Item number: 6584331830

An Original & Authentic 8 x 10 Inch US Army WWII First View of "Liberation Star" Insignia For D-Day Invasion May 1944 Dated Official Signal Corps News Period Photograph.
This photo shows the white star, designated as the identification marking of the liberation forces to be deployed to the ETO at Normandy. The star was used on all Allied ground forces during the rest of WWII. Note the truck is Canadian. The location is England, just before the invasion. The unit marking is censored for deletion, indicating the truck was assigned to the Canadian Postal Corps.

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

3rd Div postal unit had a AoS of '80' white on black, 4th Armd Dive had a '44' ditto. 2 Corps was '84'

Can someone see under the censor's mark?

It should be a formation sign, but which one?

I wonder what the date is? May 1944 jives with the 'Liberation Star' but what about the Field Service cap the squaddie is wearing?

I wonder why the US Army Signal corps took a picture of one of our trucks?

Steve

[Hanno Spoelstra]

How's this for making clear who you are?!?!

[lynx42]

I guess if I was driving a GERMAN truck through Europe in the later stages of the War, I would also have BIG recognisable Allied markings too.
I think it's an Opel Blitz.
Regards Rick

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

I note that the Chev has the "Inboard" clearance lights, my C60S's have the holes for both, Hmmmm.....wonder if it was to do with the fitment of the raiator condensor? Just thought of that, it's always bugged me.
Rich

[cliff]

Originally Posted by lynx42

I think it's an Opel Blitz.
Regards Rick

It is a Steyr 1500 ??

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cliff

It is a Steyr 1500 ??

Yes, the Steyr 1500A light truck.

[TColvin]

Can anyone provide evidence that any Canadian, or British, soldier objected to the Liberation star because it was perceived as American?

There was annoyance among British soldiers about Yanks taking their women, but Canadians did that as well.

There were jibes about Americans being overpaid, oversexed and overhere, answered by Americans saying Brits were underpaid, undersexed and underike.

But I never heard the Liberation star being called American. The need for it was obvious, and there was no alternative, was there?

Neither were the white D-Day stripes painted on all aircraft, to my knowledge, ever described as being American.

Stars and stripes for ever? I don't think it occurred to anyone, and, if it did, no one minded.

They had bigger things on their mind - such as staying alive.

Tony

[lynx42]

I believe the correct term for the Star, be it White, Yellow, with a circle or without is the "Allied Recognition Sign".

The first use of the circle around the star was for operation 'Husky', the invasion of Sicily in July 1943. The recommended colour of that circle was YELLOW. If yellow was not available then white, red or blue in that order.

One Dodge Weapons Carrier here in OZ, had the yellow circle and the name 'Umpire' on the hood, until the owner restored it and just put the white circle. Thus destroying it's authentic provenance.

The American Armoured Corp, did not like removing their pre-war Yellow Star if favour of the ordered White Star. This order came through in December 1942. Infact General Patton kept the Yellow Star on his Scoutcar, Halftrack and Dodge right through the war.

I have a listing of some of the order numbers for the changes to the Allied Signs through WW2, but as I am shifting house, they are boxed up and put somewhere to be re-discovered at a later time.

Hope this helps.
Regards Rick

[Eric B]

I talked to a few Vets who did not like the US Star on their vehicles.

Before D-Day the Canadians and British troops used something similar to the RAF Roundal. It did not stand out as much as the Star and therefore was not as nice of a target to shoot at.

From my understanding the US Forces in Italy were the only ones to use the Star. It was also on all of their vehicles in the UK. The Vets refered to it as the US Star, not the Invasion or Allied star.

They placed the star on the angle to show that they were not US Forces. They also took every oppertunity to muddy, subdue, or paint over it once in the field.

Thanks

Eric

[Rob MacDonald]

They also painted the circle around the star much wider (and the star much smaller) to emphasise the difference.

Most Canadian troops REALLY hated having the US insignia on their vehicles - remember that the No. 1 threat/invasion scenario (from the War of 1812, through the Fenian Raids up until the US actually entered the war in 1941) was an American invasion of Canada and to this day the quickest way to recieve a fist in the mouth is to call a Canadian soldier a 'yank'.

Nothing personal, y'unnerstand - we just aren't and don't want to be Americans.

[Keith Webb]

Nothing personal, y'unnerstand - we just aren't and don't want to be Americans.

That's why we listen closely to an accent before hazarding a guess about where someone is from. When in doubt it's always safer to say: 'You're from Canada aren't you?'

[malcolm erik bogaert]

thats all very well but technicly your both north-americans...regards malcolm

[Rob MacDonald]

...and ONE day we'll have 50 new provinces!

then as now the adoption of an 'American' insignia was a defensive measure against 'friendly fire' incidents involving US aircraft.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

an old WW2 Veteran once told that when the Luftwaffe flew over they didnt bother taking cover or even the RAF...but when the USAF flew over....everybody took cover regards malcolm

[Rob MacDonald]

It would be funny if it wasn't usually tragic: the INFALLIBLE way to get the lads to speed up digging any defensive position is to say "Oh and by the way, we have American air support!"

They start digging like bloody badgers!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"NEW YORK BUREAU
U.S. STAR MARKS ALLIED INVASION VEHICLES



ENGLAND – The five pointed white star which, until recently, marked trucks, tanks and other vehicles of the U.S. forces, will mark all vehicles of the Allied Expeditionary Force for the forthcoming invasion. An example ofh the complete integration of men and equipment under the command of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the “invasion star” here, (above), is shown being painted on British Army vehicles “somewhere in England.” This photo was radioed from London to New York tonight.
Credit: Acme radio photo 5-31-44"

Source: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/show...at=3020&page=2

[maple_leaf_eh]

From the War Diary of the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment 30 Jun 44:

"... Unit remained in position NE of Le Vey during the day. Orders have been issued that all white stars on the sides of tanks are to be painted out with drab. Green camouflage paint is now available and tanks will be repainted with this in place of the brown. ..."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here is a nice story about the allied recognition star: "When the liberators drove into Hillegom, The Netherlands, this reportedly moved Jan Berbee very much. So when he got his own transport company back on the road, he adorned his cars with the five-pointed star for many years. As a tribute to the Americans, Canadians and Englishmen who risked their lives for the people in the Netherlands."

The photo shows some of their trucks in the 1990s, the star has been dropped from their current livery.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

C8A with 2nd TAF, Normandy 1944. Notice how the white star is “squeezed” making it look thinner.

[chrisgrove]

For some years I have been under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that somewhere, sometime, there was a Canadian order that their white stars were to be painted with one point facing forward (whereas the normal for other nations was with one point facing upward). The 'point forward' placing does make it look as f the star is just a little different from the normal. But the reason could just be that there was an order for this to be done.
Chris

[charlie fitton]

Originally Posted by chrisgrove

...The 'point forward' placing does make it look as f the star is just a little different from the normal. But the reason could just be that there was an order for this to be done.
Chris

The first two pics support that thought...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Steve Guthrie

Hello Hanno

Here it is

Steve

Tim Bell posted the same document 2D/9-6-2, HQ 2 Cdn Inf Div, but dated 26 April 44. Interestingly, it has another version of the template for the white star attached.

[Jordan Baker]

I believe I’ve found definitive proof that the Canadians painted their stars on straight…

All Canadians, whether they have been aware of it or not, are personally acquainted with this man of many moods and misfortunes. For Herbie IS the Canadian Army. He is the ambassador-at-large who almost missed the troop train for Halifax, was less one crown and anchor board on arrival overseas, got lost in the London Underground, drunk in the Queens’s at Aldershot, failed to salute the flag car at Leatherhead, holed up with a simply delightful English family on Exercise Spartan and was unholed by the provost. He was first in the bully beef barter queue in Sicily, thrown for a loss by vino rosso, midwife at a Bambi OS birth in Italy, stubbed his toe on the Normandy beach and became D-Day’s first casualty thereby. He fought and franc’d his way through France and Belgium, fell into an Amsterdam canal, thought V2 fluid was hopped-up Calvados, was brought back to life, cautioned the postal corps to strike him off strength and came home…

Call it fact. Call it fiction. Call it Herbie

Now since Herbie’s truck had a straight painted star, there surely was no conspiracy to paint them crooked, otherwise Herbie would most definitely have been in on it.

The above was inspired by an individual on Facebook who was adamant that the Canadians always painted their star’s crooked.