Morris PU: BEF Dunkirk? Unit, registration?

Alex van de Wetering · #1 06-09-09, 15:14

Hi Guys,

No, I didn't swap the C8 for a Morris.....it's a scale model. I am desperately trying to finish my Scratchbuilt Morris Commercial PU for our Dutch model club magazine, but I am a little stuck at the moment. I only have a few days left.
The Intention is to dress up the Morris as a Dunkirk vehicle, but I can't seem to find a suitable registration for the truck...I think I can come up with a census number, but what about a unit???

The other question is, did BEF vehicles carry normal headlights? Not black-outs I guess???

period pictures would also help.

Alex

Rich Payne · #2 06-09-09, 16:47

Decent Hi-res photos of BEF softskins are a bit few and far between and I haven't got anything in books really worth scanning.

Morris-Commercials with the BEF often seem to have the Arm of Service marking on its coloured background displayed on a square plate central to the radiator grille, Bridging plate on right-hand mudguard and Divisional Insignia on the left-hand side.

Do you have an idea which unit you'd like to display ?

Hodges and Taylor include details of 1940 AoS markings so that's straightforward to look up. Some Divisional insignia differed from later in the war but I can find illustrations of some of them.

Blackout in 1940 consisted of the lower half of the reflector being painted black and a manilla paper mask inside the glass with a small semi-circular cut-out.

Ron Pier · #3 06-09-09, 18:06

Fancy seeing you on here Rich. When I researched the markings for my Norton Big4 outfit, I came across a model makers magazine. It gave some clear insight to the markings for the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. It also went on to mention that they had Morris 8cwt trucks and scout cars ( Dingos) The only original pictures are obviously in B&W. The marking on the Big4 are a red TT in a black circle, and a white 18 in a coloured square. There is some debate about the colour of the square. Is it black, green or red?? The other B4 markings are, unit and vehicle number. Here is what I did with my PU8/4. With some artistic licence. I have no picture evidence of the PU8/4 with the BEF. So far I've only seen them in North Africa. Not so the PU though, they were definitely at Dunkirk. Ron

Rich Payne · #4 06-09-09, 20:59

Hello Ron, I think that Alex could do worse than use your Morris as an example. I had forgotten that article in 'Army & Navy Modelworld' - I have a poor quality scan which I'll send through to Alex.

As you say, there has been debate about the colour used by 4 RNF but I think that you're correct in using red. This picture of a 50 Div sidecar at Herseaux in 1940 makes it quite obvious that the AoS background cannot be black and is the same tone as the 'TT'

Keith Brooker · #5 07-09-09, 22:24

Some photos of morris PU in the Dunkirk area 1940. Hope these are OK. Photos are from my collection. The first truck photo has TT on it. 2nd photo is a RA unit.

Alex van de Wetering · #6 09-09-09, 13:15

Rich, Ron and Keith,

Thank you very much for your replies. This really helps me a lot! I am hoping to finish the build of the model today and put some paint on it tomorrow. I have indeed decided to dress the Morris up as a truck from 4RNF, 50th Division.

The Norton in Rich' picture shows the "twin T's" in a rounded patch. Was this common in the early stages of the war, compared to the square patch you often see in pictures taken later in the war? Or did it differ from one vehicle to another?

Rich, regarding the blackouts. What colour would the Manilla paper have been? Dark green or black, maybe? Do I understand correctly that only a small half-circular form was left open on the top of the headlight? Or the bottom? When looking at Keith second picture, the lower half od the headlights seems to be a lighter colour? Or is it actually the mirror we are looking at?

thanks guys,

Alex

Alex van de Wetering · #7 09-09-09, 13:21

Rich, Ron and Keith,

Thank you very much for your replies. This really helps me a lot! I am hoping to finish the build of the model today and put some paint on it tomorrow. I have indeed decided to dress the Morris up as a truck from 4RNF, 50th Division.

The Norton in Rich' picture shows the "twin T's" in a rounded patch. Was this common in the early stages of the war, compared to the square patch you often see in pictures taken later in the war? Or did it differ from one vehicle to another?

Rich, regarding the blackouts. What colour would the Manilla paper have been? Dark green or black, maybe? Do I understand correctly that only a small half-circular form was left open on the top of the headlight? Or the bottom? When looking at Keith second picture, the lower half od the headlights seems to be a lighter colour? Or is it actually the mirror we are looking at?

thanks guys,

Alex

Rich Payne · #8 09-09-09, 14:07

The 'TT' in Keith's first picture is also on a circular ground. Many 1940 period insignia were slightly different, for instance 4th Div had a different quarter.

The small semi circle on the lamp glass should be underneath but was sometimes wrong and often vibrated out of line. Other vehicles were completely overpainted.

I think that you're looking at the half-painted silver reflector in the picture of the damaged vehicle. The glasses were easily damaged and then fall completely out.

The paper mask was black (based on my surviving rear lamp mask).

Rich

Ron Pier · #9 10-09-09, 11:34

Using the very good information available re the 4RNF. This is how I depicted my Big4. I just need a Dingo now, in the same markings to start my own unit.

BTW. you can buy that black manila card from Hobycraft, but I guess you'd know that, as a modeler.

Ron

Keith Brooker · #10 11-09-09, 17:24

The top photo shows a Morris PU on the Eastern Front 23 Oct 1941 shot up a bit & 2nd photo in June 1940.
Photos from my collection.

Ron Pier · #11 14-09-09, 16:48

Keith, anything in your photo collection regarding PU8/4's ?
Ron

cliff · #12 14-09-09, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Thank you very much for your replies. This really helps me a lot! I am hoping to finish the build of the model today and put some paint on it tomorrow. I have indeed decided to dress the Morris up as a truck from 4RNF, 50th Division.

Alex

Well where are the sample photos of the model for us to enjoy Alex?

Keith Brooker · #13 14-09-09, 23:59

Sorry Ron, i do not have any photos of that Morris

. quite a rare Morris.

Alex van de Wetering · #14 17-09-09, 15:43

Thanks guys, you have been very helpfull. I made the final pics for the magazine yesterday. The model is finished for now, but I will continue work on it in the next few weeks...still got the WS11 to fit, the batteries, all accessoiries and the canopy on the rear body. I knew I wasn't able to get those finished in time for the magazine, so finished it as much as I could.

Quote:

Well where are the sample photos of the model for us to enjoy Alex?

Hey Cliff. Sadly I promised not to publish any pictures yet, until the club mag appears, but I attached a sneak-peak anyway

Alex

Rich Payne · #15 17-09-09, 17:45

The colours look very BEF to me Alex. I look forward to seeing and reading more.

cliff · #16 17-09-09, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Hey Cliff. Sadly I promised not to publish any pictures yet, until the club mag appears, but I attached a sneak-peak anyway

Alex

Alex it looks good. I look forward to seeing more once you are able to show them.

Alex van de Wetering · #17 28-09-09, 16:24

Quote:

The colours look very BEF to me Alex

Rich, I am very happy you said that, as the colours have been bothering me ever since I sprayed them on with the airbrush. I used Mike Starmers colour mixes, but lightened them with a little bit of tan/pinkish colour. The reason I did this is that we currently like to use techniques in modeling to make the truck look used etc. But these techniques also make the paint look darker, so I tried to compensate this. Anwyay, what I am trying to say is that I did use Mike's mixes to get the proper colour, only to change the mix afterwards

So, I am very happy you think the colour looks BEF to you!

Quote:

Alex it looks good. I look forward to seeing more once you are able to show them.

Thanks Cliff! I will certainly bother you guys with some pictures when I am able to. Apart from the guys in this thread, a big thanks towards Mike Kelly for helping me with some detail pictures and detailed drawings of the box and lockers!

Alex

Alex van de Wetering · #18 22-10-09, 13:51

Well guys,

The club magazine came out last week, so attached you will find some pictures of the model as promised. I do have to ad that in the meantime I did finish the Wireless set no.11, batteries and canopy-frame just in time for a big Dutch modelling competition last Sunday! I havn't had the oppertunity to take new pictures, but when I do, I will post another few pics showing the rear of the truck.

Alex

Ron Pier · #19 22-10-09, 15:35

Great Job Alex. I'll look forward to the wireless shots. Ron

cliff · #20 22-10-09, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

The club magazine came out last week, so attached you will find some pictures of the model as promised.

Excellent work as normal Alex. Thanks for sharing and I too look forward to seeing the radio photos as well.

Alex van de Wetering · #21 29-10-09, 22:47

Ron, Cliff,

Thanks. I really had a lot of fun building the model and to be honest, there are still some things left to do.....especially when looking at your pictures, Ron!
Pics with Wireless WILL follow soon.

Alex

Rich Payne · #22 30-10-09, 00:21

There was a nice BEF marked Morris Commercial photo on eBay last week (Ron has seen this one).

Marked up to 145th Brigade from 48th (South Midland Division) and located in Cassel where the brigade held the German advance.

The original print for sale was a reversed image.

Ian McCallum · #23 03-11-09, 14:28

I am not sure from looking at the rear of the vehicle in the foreground that it is a Morris? Both the rear style of the buck and split canvas configuration are identical to that on my WOC1. Rear mudguards style is also identical. Will look out a relevant photo tonight and post it for consideration.

Ian

Ron Pier · #24 03-11-09, 16:45

You could be right Ian. My friend Rory will see if he can work out something from the Z number. He also has the Z number records for the WOC1's if you need them.
The little 8cwt body in slightly different formats was fitted to various vehicles. Morris, Ford, Humber, Chevy etc.
Ron

Rich Payne · #25 03-11-09, 18:56

I would never pretend to be able to identify from a rear-end photo but I'm pretty sure that the census number reads Z392064* Which would seem to place it under the Morris-Commercial contract V3517 (Z3919836 - Z3921632).

Ron Pier · #26 03-11-09, 19:10

Exactly the details Rory just gave me Z3919836-Z3921632 from Contract V3517..... Plus just above the Motorcycle seat at the bottom of tailboard is a welded plate. This was a Morris feature. The bodies weren't suitably supported on the PU chassis and had a tendency to split in this area. Ron

S LATHERON (RIP) · #27 03-11-09, 19:57

My father was a member of the BEF rear guard that fought against the German forces at Cassel. Finally being taken prisoner when the section he was in was eventually overrun. Most of the troops had run out of Ammunition and carried wounds of some sort. My father had a lucky escape when a petrol bowser took a direct hit and he was knocked over by a lump of truck chassis at the end of its flight. Must have been a flat section of steel as it did nothing more than heavy bruises to his shoulder and arm.
For the rest of the war he was a Guest of the Germans in both Poland and Germany. Towards the end of the war the prisoners were forced to march from POW camp to POW camp as the Red army looked set to over run the section of Germany that the Prison / stalag was in.
The camp was finally liberated by the Advancing US forces on Good Friday 1945.
Kenneth Latheron RIP 2007.

Stephen L

malcolm erik bogaert · #28 03-11-09, 20:51

my old uncle was in the rearguard with the RNF captured at St.Valery...spent the rest of the war as POW also in Poland and Germany...and along with many local old soldiers took part in the long march away from the advancing soviet forces...now they have all gone to there well earned rest...GOD BLESS THEM ALL.....regards malcolm

Rich Payne · #29 03-11-09, 22:16

Cassel was very knocked about thanks to the determined defence.

There is an interesting French language site with some 'then and now' photos.

http://www.2iemeguerre.com/jemesouviens/cassel.htm

Ian McCallum · #30 04-11-09, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

Exactly the details Rory just gave me Z3919836-Z3921632 from Contract V3517..... Plus just above the Motorcycle seat at the bottom of tailboard is a welded plate. This was a Morris feature. The bodies weren't suitably supported on the PU chassis and had a tendency to split in this area. Ron

Should have engaged brain before responding and checked census numbers myself! Also did not spot the welded plate on the nearside rear. Ford census numbers all started with '4' being 4128194 - 9193 in contract V3615 and 4129194 - 30193 in contract V3730. Rear of my Ford WOC1 for info. Census number is its original, making it the 489th built within the first contract and December 39/January 40 build. Markings are for the 1st Battalion Suffolk Regiment, part of 8 Brigade / 3 Infantry Division BEF

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Dunkirk	Ed Storey	WW2 Military History & Equipment	45	31-08-17 12:01
Quad at Dunkirk photo	Ryan	The Softskin Forum	1	04-02-12 23:36
Filmset - Dunkirk	Noel Burgess	The Softskin Forum	13	28-09-08 23:22
Dunkirk Morris CS8 ?	Mike K	The Softskin Forum	2	05-05-08 21:28
Registration & Benefits	Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)	TAC HQ	13	21-05-05 03:25