Canadian M151A2's ...... ??

[BCBlitz]

MLUpers

I am currious as to the whole deal on the MUTT's, like when did they all get disposed of ?, how many were on the roster vs disposed of ?, when they sold them did you get them cut and did you get the same 2 pieces back or was it mix and match ?

also how many really were scrapped vs how many were rebuilt ?, are they a worth anything today cut and repaired ? Im having trouble believeing that the DOT authorities like this idea

I know lotsa questions but have read a bit about them but figured Id ask here.

It sounds like a very few snuck past the torch but most were cut, anyone with any pics of there own or can fill in the blancs would be great, more currious than anything..... seems we talk alot about Jeeps and Willy's but the MUTT seems to be not so popular prolly due to the disposal process.

Thanks much

[rob love]

I bought a batch of 30 of them, so I could likely shed some light on the subject. There were 935 Nutts purchased by DND, and the bulk of them (about 900) still remained on the books. Despite the safety concerns with the Mutts, the fact that they were newer than the M38A1 fleet they seemed to survive pretty well. When the time came to get rid of the fleet, our reasons for destruction seemed to be a direct copy of the US. They claimed DOT's decision not to have them on the road as well as the fact that they did not meet EPA standards. I thought EPA was an American thing.

At the base I was at, we had one towed, complete with batteries and all, to the local crusher to see how well it would go. No problem, and the DND likely got it's $30 for salvage. However, nationally, a decision was made to sell the Mutts as salvage, with the bodies going to the crusher and their destruction witnessed by DND pers.

I bought my 30 for $110 each if I recall, and had to move them from Shilo to wherever I was going to do the work. The contract I had allowed me to remove anything that could be taken with hand tools, but no torches were to be used. Not sure the reasoning behind this. It may have been the intention of Ottawa that the vehicles did not leave the base, but Shilo insisted they leave. However, as I was moving the last couple, a very drunk veh tech MWO pulled me over on the highway stating that he had just been to a meeting in Ottawa and that none of the muts were supposed to leave the base. I politely told him that if the DND wanted to pay for their return they could. 30 is an easy number to say, but not an easy number to move. Anyway, that was the last I heard of that.

So I had 30 jeeps out in a field, almost all had full tanks of fuel, all had their batteries, lots of brand new spare tires, some even had their tool kits and locks on them. A couple even had their IKEES, but of course, no radios.

On completion of the stripping, the 30 bodies were picked up by a local tractor/trailer operator, and taken to mandak metals for scrap. The CADC guys went down to witness them being cubed and that was the end of that.

There were some larger lots of 250 or so, depending on the location. A few were sent to various museums, both regimental and the war museum. A few managed to escape uncut through trades by collectors, but these were on the QT. A few years later, when the parts were disposed of, there was the release of some new in the box bodies, which contributed to the resurrection of a few. I know many of the Alberta ones were torched clean through the middle and then later reassembled. The saskatchewan ones were torch cut into 5 pieces, there are still a few minor pieces at the guys place that cut them. There were also some bodies which had been scrapped due to accident damage sufficient enough to warrant PCC. Most of those had been cannibalized, but when the cut ups appeared, were perfect for rebuild.

I built up one MUTT that way. I had a body which only sufferred fender damage on one side. It was an easy rebuild, and as an early release, was rust free and in better shape, other than the fender, than any of the 30 I bought.

There are a few around, but since the majority of them got the axe, they are likely the rarest jeep in Canada.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by BCBlitz

MLUpers

I am currious as to the whole deal on the MUTT's, like when did they all get disposed of ?, how many were on the roster vs disposed of ?, when they sold them did you get them cut and did you get the same 2 pieces back or was it mix and match ?

also how many really were scrapped vs how many were rebuilt ?, are they a worth anything today cut and repaired ? Im having trouble believeing that the DOT authorities like this idea

I know lotsa questions but have read a bit about them but figured Id ask here.

It sounds like a very few snuck past the torch but most were cut, anyone with any pics of there own or can fill in the blancs would be great, more currious than anything..... seems we talk alot about Jeeps and Willy's but the MUTT seems to be not so popular prolly due to the disposal process.

Thanks much

Hello,

I am by no means an expert on these compared to some others on here, but having owned two at one point, and currently rolling restoring the better of the two, so I have some incite.

All the records I have seen indicate that there were 935 M151A2s purchased back in 1974. Most of the "plain" 151s were disposed in 87/88, with some of the special equipment models like the TOW versions as late as 89/90. The very early and very late disposals seem to be the least likely to have been "demilled". Rob Love can better speak to the actual nuances of the process for "Demilling" as I think he scrapped 30 of them.

The disposal process with these was exactly why I wanted one. No offence to anyone else's choice of MV, but I wanted something I wasn't likely going to run into regularly, and conversly, due to the fact that 98% were scrapped in both the US and Canada, there is a huge stockpile of spare parts available for them. Nearly every part on it can still be purchased NOS. There is of course the whole bit about them not being a "Real Jeep", even though early A1s were built by Willys. I'm not going to dwell on that as the whole thing is really rediculous seeing as how little an M38A1 has in common with a GPW/MB, yet its still considered a "Real Jeep". Ironically, 99% of people I run into at Gas Stations and Tim Hortons think its either a WWII Jeep or an Iltis, and as mentioned in other funny posts, many also seem to think they know more about it than I do. When I tell them its a 74, more often than not, they roll their eyes in disbelief. Although, I did have one situation where a person actually correctly identified it and mentioned that he thought that "MUTTs" were illegal to register and drive on the road.

There are some Canadian 151s out there that are "Un-Cut", but these are extremely rare, and with rust being the biggest killer of 151s aside from the disposal process, i'd go out on a limb to say the numbers of Un-Cut original Canadian 151s are in the lower end of the double digits. To add to the scarcity, at least half of the "Un-Cut" 151s in Canada that I have seen are actually surplused US imports. Although the whole disposal process was dictated by the US, obviously through sheer numbers alone, more "Un-Cut" 151s survive in the US. The differences in MWOs and Mods over their lifespan make it very easy to differentiate between US and Cdn 151s.

Both of mine were "Demilled". One being an early "Saw Cut", ie, a single clean cut across the centre under the Seats. The other was a later "Saw Cut" that required a 1' strip cut out of the centre. From what I understand, this "strip" had to be returned to DND. In both cases, they match, so it wasn't a mix and match scenario. I've even heard that some ended up being crushed flat after being cut, but I can't verify that.

As far as value. Its all in the "eye of the beholder" like everything else I guess. Mine both cost around $2500ish each (in rough shape), although from a Rust standpoint, one was virtually Rust free by M151A2 standards. I have easily spent another couple of K on parts and shop consumables getting the nicer one roadworthy. Surely an "Un-Cut" version is going to fetch a significant amount more, but these are hardly a monetary investment regardless In my own case, getting a Canadian 151 that I could get the history/provenance on was priority number one. The fact that it is Cut is annoying, but i'd rather a Cut Canadian 151 than an "Un-Cut" US 151, but thats just my take.

As far as the whole issue of being Cut, versus the Motor Vehicle folks; i've seen far worse scrap repaired and put on the road. At least mine is virtually incapable of speeds over 60mph (suicide). For what its worth, it went through inspection just fine. It has been repaired correctly, and really isn't that noticable unless you're looking for a Cut line. Mine is registered as an AMC Jeep and not an M151A2.

I have a much longer post in this sub-forum detailing much of my efforts getting my M151A2 put back on the road.

Scotty B

[Scott Bentley]

Seems Rob and I were typing at the same time

Rob, its way past your bed time

Scotty

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Just out of curiosity, what are the differences between Canuckistani MUTTs and Murricun MUTTs? Idle curiosity only - I've only owned M-series jeeps as well as a CJ, two Canadian-made YJs and (presently) a TJ. I like the look of MUTTs though.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Just out of curiosity, what are the differences between Canuckistani MUTTs and Murricun MUTTs? Idle curiosity only - I've only owned M-series jeeps as well as a CJ, two Canadian-made YJs and (presently) a TJ. I like the look of MUTTs though.

We have that in common. Although i've only ever owned one other MV besides an M151A2, I am/was a Jeep fanatic having owned at one time or another an example of nearly every SWB Jeep made after 1967. I sold my TJ shod with 40" Rubber and 1 Ton Ford Axles as I never had time to get it on the trails, and it was catching many stares from the Police

The differences between the US Army/US Air Force and Cdn M151A2s all stem from the Mods that were completed during service, as they all came off of the same assembly line in no particular order. The USMC M151A2 have some minor differences from the others consisting of a long Front Bumper with Lifting Tabs the lack of Lifting Tabs on the Wheel Hubs and most had Fording Kits.

The biggest external visual differences are:

Paint Scheme,
Grill Guard made from Expanded Metal,
Mirrors mounted on both Front Fenders,
Spare Tire/Antenna Base Bracket (has the Spare Tire mounted in reverse to US models),
CFR/Licence Plate Mounting Tabs welded to Left Bumperette and sometimes the Front Bumper, and
Some Antenna AMU were mounted directly to the Rear Top corners of the ROPS (US used Corner Mounts with extensions and Sugar Scoops).

More detailed differences are (depending on how stripped the M151A2 is, these will only be spotted by the holes left behind):

With the ROPS installed, the Weight and Dimension Plate is cut in Half and riveted to the Windshield Frame above the Passenger Grab Handle (US is most often riveted complete behind Passenger Grab Handle),
Ansul Fire Extinguisher mounted on Transmission Tunnel Cover (US is behind the Driver Seat on side of Wheelhouse),
Although both used the VRC-12 Comms Systems during that era, US and CDN mounting systems for the MT-1029 and Antenna AMU are completely different and CDN Comms installs used C2299 Boxes on Passenger side Wheelhouse, and L Shaped Brackets on the Front Corners of the Wheelhouses. The IKEE (Radio Power Supply) were bolted to these,
ROPS and Mounts/Feet are completely different, and when installed CDN did not use Top Bows, had 3 Point Seat Belts, and the US moved the Light Switch closer to the Steering Column,
CDN SMG Mount sometimes found on the Windshield Frame between the Defroster Louvres,
CDN Doors used non-folding Frames and had modified inside Handles to secure to the ROPS Cage rather than Top Rods,
Both the Upper and Lower Door Pin Mounting Tabs are different.
There is also the Decals.

This is by no means comprehensive. The actual lists of US and CDN MWOs will identify a few others, but these are the visual differences that can be picked out at a glance, even if its just the location of bolt holes.

Scotty

[BCBlitz]

Hi All

Thanks for the help ......... WOW just ask and thou shall recieve around here

Well sounds like if you were to have one guess you should enjoy it for what it is, a cut up refabbed piece of history to save and enjoy just like all the other MV out there, kinda funny how the CDN military does not want this kind of stuff in private hands, heck it took our ( taxpayers ) dollars to buy it all for crazy prices in the first place, guess its all about liability .

Im waiting to see how they are going to handle the disposal of the CDN Deuce truck here in the next few years after they get the new binders to replace them, would be a shame to not be able to aquire them should be an interesting read.

Thanks all .....

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by BCBlitz

Hi All

Thanks for the help ......... WOW just ask and thou shall recieve around here

Well sounds like if you were to have one guess you should enjoy it for what it is, a cut up refabbed piece of history to save and enjoy just like all the other MV out there, kinda funny how the CDN military does not want this kind of stuff in private hands, heck it took our ( taxpayers ) dollars to buy it all for crazy prices in the first place, guess its all about liability .

Im waiting to see how they are going to handle the disposal of the CDN Deuce truck here in the next few years after they get the new binders to replace them, would be a shame to not be able to aquire them should be an interesting read.

Thanks all .....

There was an interesting article in I believe it was the Ottawa Sun (available online) where a collector had actually wrote the Defence Minister as to why his MLVW was sold as "residue", therfor not allowing him to title it. May have even been posted on this Forum for that matter. The long and short of it is, they are not being sold with a Title for use on the Road.

Anyway, there have been quite a few discussions as to why they should or shouldn't be sold for legal legit use on the road. The big highlight that seems to tweek my memory was the unconventional Air Over Hydraulic Brake System on the Truck that when they fail, there is no reliable back-up system. Not sure if that is the actual "policy" or just urban legend. Either way, most that have been sold so far seem to be showing up without Starters. Although the Engines are not uncommon in commercial vehicles, the 24v Starter may require some digging around.

Crying shame really. There are some really nice specimens floating around out there, low milage etc. Then there are the others Ontario and further East that you will put your foot through the Fender trying to check the Fluids

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thanks for that, I had no idea there were that many differences! It's interesting, probably because virtually the only time one sees them up here is on TV, depicting Viet Nam use.

Ref your TJ, mine is set up pretty well methinks. I have a 2-inch suspension lift, deep-dish 15" wheels running 32-1150 x 15 Goodyears on Dana 4.10 axles, together with a Warn 8000x winch on front. I also have gas and water cans mounted ahead of the doors. Despite the paint job, we DON'T attract overt attention by the local constabulary, which is always good... I think my set-up is ideal for regular use and especially in winter when things get messy. I have to admit I haven't used it offroad yet, but my '92 YJ was set up somewhat the same (albeit with 31-1050s) and it worked like a charm. I AM curious as to how my coil-spring suspension will compare with the old leaf springs I know too well, though...

BTW, I have a full OD softtop for it, but DO need to find a set of half-doors for next summer...

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Ref your TJ, mine is set up pretty well methinks. I have a 2-inch suspension lift, deep-dish 15" wheels running 32-1150 x 15 Goodyears on Dana 4.10 axles, together with a Warn 8000x winch on front. I also have gas and water cans mounted ahead of the doors. Despite the paint job, we DON'T attract overt attention by the local constabulary, which is always good... I think my set-up is ideal for regular use and especially in winter when things get messy. I have to admit I haven't used it offroad yet, but my '92 YJ was set up somewhat the same (albeit with 31-1050s) and it worked like a charm. I AM curious as to how my coil-spring suspension will compare with the old leaf springs I know too well, though...

BTW, I have a full OD softtop for it, but DO need to find a set of half-doors for next summer...

I had the most fun with my TJ when it resembled (Size-wise) what your running, things went crazy soon after that. To do it all over again, I would keep it small and wheel the hell out of it. I was quite active with the local Jeep Clubs at most of the places i've been posted over the years. Here are a few snaps of my TJ. It started life as a 97 TJ Sahara I bought new in 1997. By the end just before I sold it the only things remaining from the actual TJ I originally bought was the Frame and Grill. Reality for me was, even though MVs are addictive, building a Rig for Rockcrawling was like very advanced Crack Cocaine habit. I was averaging 20 hours of actual trail time for every couple of thousand spent on Mods. Unline MV's where we are struggling to get every original detail correct, in Rockcrawling it was all about the new advanced Tires, Shocks, Diff Locks etc etc. I started to realize the need to wrench on a vehicle was more satisfying than actually wheeling my Jeep. I bit the bullet and sold my TJ and bought my M151A2 projects. Probably the best move I ever made. A new set of 40" Rubber on my TJ cost more than an entire M151A2

Cir 2001 in Gagetown: (No comments about the tires please )


Cir 2005 in Petawawa:


Cir 2008 in Trenton right before I sold it




Sorry for the Hijack....

[WayneR]

As a retired tanker from the West I just have to ask about the funny looking plate you have on the front. Doesn't "Ubique" translate into RUN!!!

Just Kidding!! As for the MUTTs we only had I believe 5 (OC of each squadron and the CO's rover) in our Regiment and the rest were all M38. When the got rid of them they just disappeared off the base when the Iltis appeared. A shame, they made good bush buggies.

The word we got about the MLVW was that they stopped being road worthy due to the air over hydraulic brakes as well as they found excessive rust inside the split rims. We were told that we could still use them but were not allowed to carry troops in them any longer.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Wayne

[servicepub (RIP)]

Service Publications would be interested in publishing a "Weapons of War" title on the Canadia M151 (http://www.servicepub.com/weapons.html)
If interested in writing 6,000-6,500 words on the acquisition, use, variants and disposal of this vehicle please let me know via PM.
Thnx,
Clive

[BCBlitz]

well this is quite the bunch of answers to the MUTT question, thanks all.

so where can a person find new sheetmetal for them or is there even any ?
for floors, side panels, rear corners etc etc ?, or is it owner fab ??

So from what I read there are not too many cut or uncut ones around that are OEM Canada ?, so maybe this is something a fellow should grab should a person find one ? as not like they are gonna make any more eh ?

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by BCBlitz

well this is quite the bunch of answers to the MUTT question, thanks all.

so where can a person find new sheetmetal for them or is there even any ?
for floors, side panels, rear corners etc etc ?, or is it owner fab ??

So from what I read there are not too many cut or uncut ones around that are OEM Canada ?, so maybe this is something a fellow should grab should a person find one ? as not like they are gonna make any more eh ?

They aren't a needle in the haystack to find, but finding a unit worth restoring is the real challenge. I guess it all depends on what your definition of restorable is. Because these little guys have a Uni-Body, there are serious limitations to what can be done to save a very rusty one.

I bought 2, one with a fairly clean body and another (Rusty) in order have enough parts to minimize how much I would have to buy. Its not like an MB/GPW, M38 or 38A1 where you can just plunk down the cash for a new reproduction Tub if the current one is BER. I guess thats what makes them a special labour of love. Having built this one, my advice would be to avoid anything that is rotted out in the ass end, especially underneath. Thats the only area that would be hard to fix without screaming. There are lots of "little details" in the original body that really stand out if all new metal is installed. The other is the Uni-Frame itself. Reinforcing a clean but cut one is easy, trying to repair a rust out one is not easy nor safe.

The panels are fairly easy to get, there are 2 shops in the US that make some (Jeeppanelsplus and Florida Tactical), and then another in Europe (Name esapes me, but its Nordic) that makes nearly all the panels you could want. I ended up buying a Battery Box Floor and the Tunnel Cover. Both are almost a minimum requirement to cleanly restore a "Cut" unit. I think they may have cost $100 for both. There are also factory Underbody Repair kits that are still floating around. Although they could be handy (I bought one and only used one part from it) they do require a ton of patience and plug welds to install. A Mig with Argon is IMO, a minimum requirement to do any body work with these. A huge Spot Welder would be fantastic if one had access to it, as these things are near completely held together with spot welds. I did alot of little "Drill and Fill" welding with my Mig in order to try and get that "Spot Welded look". Fillet Welds are not only difficult to do on the 18g sheetmetal, but look entirely out of place.

I guess what i'm really saying with all of this, if you are a collector who typically pays others to do the restoration labour, you may want to look elsewhere as I can't imagine what it would cost to have someone repair a unit with serious cancer. If you do most if not all of your work, then you may find it quite enjoyable to work on due their small size and extreme mechanical simplicity.

Scotty B

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Scotty, I meant to tell you, nice rig that TJ of yours! I do understand that it got to the point of being a VERY specialist vehicle, and if you're not going to use it, it's a whole lot of money just sitting there....

BTW, where did you get those doors? I haven't seen them before...

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Scotty, I meant to tell you, nice rig that TJ of yours! I do understand that it got to the point of being a VERY specialist vehicle, and if you're not going to use it, it's a whole lot of money just sitting there....

BTW, where did you get those doors? I haven't seen them before...

Broke me heart to sell it, but my wallet is thankful.

The doors are Bestop 2 pc Soft Doors, and the Top is a Bestop Cab Top. I hated wheeling with doors on. With these, I could either just pull the tops off like the factory half doors or toss them all in the back. Obviously not recommended in low security areas

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by WayneR

As a retired tanker from the West I just have to ask about the funny looking plate you have on the front. Doesn't "Ubique" translate into RUN!!!

Wayne

Hi Wayne. Just noticed the "UBIQUE" remark

RUN is the correct translation when used in conjunction with the Artillery version of the same word. It's been said that when it comes to Sappers, "UBIQUE" means "Everywhere" and with Artillery it means "All over the place"

Scotty