WTK: C6 Mounts for Iltis, Command and Reconnaisance & Other Mounts

T. Alcorn · #1 11-12-09, 21:33

Hello My Northern Brothers!
I am a former mortar crewman in the US Army, did half of my time with 81mms and 4.2in before transitioning to 120mm the last 6 mos of my 2nd enlistment.
I just purchased a Bombardier VW Iltis, still enroute to me. Right now, it is set up as a standard softtop.

As appreciation for my Northern Brothers fighting in the GWOT, I would like to kit it out as an early ISAF rig.
I've been researching C6 and M2 .50BMG Mounts for the Iltis, found designation for the 1/4ton Truck, Command and Recon with GPMG Mounting Kit. I can only find an online copy of the standard truck operators and maintenance manuals.
Searching Google Images, I found a few photos of the TOW variant, with the C6 somehow mounted on a post by the co driver:

I have a lead on a C6 mount that traverses 360 deg, elevates 60 deg, mounts on 1" OD seamless tubing. I won't have a photo available until sometime next month, the seller is in the Great White North without access to a computer.

Here's a photo of Belgian Paras with a Ma Deuce Mounted Iltis:

This looks like a standard M2 Pintle mounted on some kind of socket on the rollbar.
And this original German Iltis with an M2 .50 BMG Mounted:

This one appears to be the same socket as on the Belgian Iltis but with an M23 Equibrilator for the M2.

I also found this mystery German mount:

This is very complex, typical German over-engineering. Probably a mount for a Milan AT Missle.

Anyhow, I was hoping some of the members here might have some more info or possible source for either the TOW C6 Mount or the C&R C6 Mount.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #2 11-12-09, 21:50

Jeez, you'd think the .50 would shake that little truck to bits in short order...

T. Alcorn · #3 11-12-09, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Jeez, you'd think the .50 would shake that little truck to bits in short order...

Yeah, like the rollbar is only thinwall aluminium.

maple_leaf_eh · #4 13-12-09, 01:06

I don't recognize the machine gun mount as something routinely available. I suggest you are going to have trouble finding one. The infantry did a number of modifications to turn patrol vehicles into fighting vehicles. When a couple of suicide bombers threw themselves into open vehicles, the press made a lot of noise about inadequate equipment. Then the Iltis fleet was abandoned/left behind/given to the Afghan Army when Canada left Kabul for Kandahar in summer '06. The guys transitioned to Mercedes G Wagons at the time.

Try to troll through the DND combatcamera website for more or better pictures. It is a longshot, but try asking 3 RCR directly if they have any pictures. The battalion will have replaced or rotated almost every single soldier who was in Kabul in the early years, but asking may lead to advertising for pictures or stories through their regimental association.

Mark W. Tonner · #5 13-12-09, 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

It is a longshot, but try asking 3 RCR directly if they have any pictures. The battalion will have replaced or rotated almost every single soldier who was in Kabul in the early years, but asking may lead to advertising for pictures or stories through their regimental association.

T. Alcorn;

Terry mentioned contacting 3 RCR or the regimental association -

The Regimental Website of The Royal Canadian Regiment is located here: http://www.theroyalcanadianregiment.ca/

click on the link "The Regimental Discussion Board", this will open The Royal Canadian Regiment Forum, post your questions in the Help category.

Cheers

maple_leaf_eh · #6 16-12-09, 04:45

I just remembered something. There was a huge investigation* after an Iltis patrol had a minestrike on a route that was arguably cleared and not cleared. That would be in the Jowz (sp?) Valley, near Kabul on Oct. 2, 2003. The section commander, Sgt. Robert Short, and another colleague, Cpl. Robbie Beerenfenger, were killed. The paperwork for the report will have photos! If you can figure out the name and contents of the report, then do an Access to Information request, off you go.

The Canadian legal requirement is to investigate all casualties and issue a report. In the beginning it was a big deal "to get to the bottom of this". Nowadays, I suspect the report is much less staff work. This brevity can be a problem if the death has unclear circumstances, like cowboy contractors also engaging the enemy in the area. But that is another story.

RHClarke · #7 16-12-09, 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

If you can figure out the name and contents of the report, then do an Access to Information request, off you go.

Rant button firmly pressed:

As a former staff type I can only say that submitting an ATI request for the "report" just for the sole purpose of finding a photo of a piece of equipment is both troubling and a waste of staff time that could be better spent on administering the troops.

If you had any idea of the amount of work that it takes to process these "flights of fancy", or if you had to do it yourself, you would shake your head. If you are putting together the package, which as stated is a legal requirement, you are not putting your effort towards your job.

The average joe at the HQ processes these ATI requests - not a specialist. So, the next time you want a picture of your truck with its CFR painted on the side and want to go the ATI way, keep in mind that if the staff is engaged in that bullshit, they are not "supporting the troops".

Leave the ATI request for "real" and "important" issues. Using MLU is far easier than wasting your time, and more importantly the staffs' time.

Rant button released...

Man, I hated ATI requests...Here is a sample: "Provide all the paperwork involving the entire lifecycle for the C1 Howitzer from 196? to present day"

Get the picture (pun not intended)?

T. Alcorn · #8 16-12-09, 20:23

I'm not going to bother the system with requests for morbid photos. Appreciate the thought, though.

I may ask someone to look up the registration number to find out who mine belonged to.....PPCLI, 22eRgt, etc.

I found a few more photos of Canadian Forces Iltis with GiMPiG Mounts:
This one appears to be a soft mount on the rollbar:

And this one is some sort of improvised mount:

Found two more Belgian Iltis with a GiMPiG soft mount by the co-driver:

Young_Law · #9 16-12-09, 21:22

After doing a quick Google search for "GPMG vehicle mount" or simply GPMG mount, (along with variations of C6 or M240 in lieu of GPMG) a few sites came up.

http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/si/mount/soft.html Although not the pictured type, it may be of interest to you.

http://www.manroy.com/html/gpmg_buffered_mount.html

The ones in use by the CF in the above pictures all have the common element of being buffered mounts (just like our sustained fire tripod).

The variations might indicate, and allow you a freedom in the choice of mount for your Iltis. Just wondering, do you have an M240 to mount with it?

I hope you'll post pictures of your finished project when it comes to fruition!

Hope this helped a bit.

T. Alcorn · #10 17-12-09, 01:53

Richard,
I will be mounting an airsoft M240B on the beast. Inokatsu makes a steel body kit in steel and aluminium. The steel version weighs about 24lbs, the aluminum 16lbs. I can't buy a demilled M240 for less than $4000. And by time I try to buy demilled parts, repair, fabricate, etc, I'll have into it the same an airsoft costs.

The C6 body kit has room inside if I ever want to run a propane/oxygen firing system. Same for the C9A1.
Ideally, I'd like to have the C9A1 for the co-driver and a C6 on the rollbar. But, with the almost $2000 for an airsoft, its cheaper to put an M2 .50 in an M23 mount.
I've got some ideas going for the simplified German-style M2 pintle mount, cast in 7071, heat treated to T6 then hardcoat anodized.

Scott Bentley · #11 17-12-09, 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I just remembered something. There was a huge investigation* after an Iltis patrol had a minestrike on a route that was arguably cleared and not cleared. That would be in the Jowz (sp?) Valley, near Kabul on Oct. 2, 2003. The section commander, Sgt. Robert Short, and another colleague, Cpl. Robbie Beerenfenger, were killed. The paperwork for the report will have photos! If you can figure out the name and contents of the report, then do an Access to Information request, off you go.

The Canadian legal requirement is to investigate all casualties and issue a report. In the beginning it was a big deal "to get to the bottom of this". Nowadays, I suspect the report is much less staff work. This brevity can be a problem if the death has unclear circumstances, like cowboy contractors also engaging the enemy in the area. But that is another story.

That entire report is available open source online. As for the who, what, when, where, and why, is probably better left for another time. As a Combat Engineer, I can attest that it quite literally changed the way we did business, until we rolled into Kandahar anyway. Basically in a nutshell, we had to change our terminology from "Proven or Cleared Route" to "High, Medium or Low Risk Route" and adjust a whole bunch of procedures to align with the Route Threat Level catagorizing system. It was a risk adverse time when you still had to check to make sure people had their Ballistic Plates in their vests

and sadly, a Casualty had to be "someones fault" rather than balancing risk with mission objectives. IMO, the Iltis had ZERO to do with it, and as it turned out, it didn't take long for the Up Armoured G-Wagons to be labeled "Widowmakers" either. In its final stages, determining who was riding in what was almost like drawing straws. That too is another story

Scott Bentley · #12 17-12-09, 05:04

I did a Google Image Search using "Jowz Valley" as key words.

maple_leaf_eh · #13 18-12-09, 04:20

I asked my friend Dan Mathews* who was following the damaged ILTIS in the incident and who prodded forward to one of the casualties, about the roll bars. In a nutshell, I mentioned a fellow collector who wanted to replicate an ISAF Kabul ILTIS from 3RCR. He said, beat it with a hammer! As for the roll bars, they asked the Mat Techs to build them something. He did not remember the mounts, but I imagine they did exactly the same. So, do some photo interp' and start welding. He pointed out that the BOI report was on line, so there was no need to make any formal requests.

*Dan Mathews, Star of Courage

T. Alcorn · #14 28-12-09, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young_Law

After doing a quick Google search for "GPMG vehicle mount" or simply GPMG mount, (along with variations of C6 or M240 in lieu of GPMG) a few sites came up.

http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/si/mount/soft.html Although not the pictured type, it may be of interest to you.

I heard back from Sage International, the above soft mount:

$1464.00 each, plus shipping. Ouch!

IF this is the proper mount, at least the top part, I need to decide just how bad I want it. I would still have to fabricate the adjustable height pedistal:

I have a lead on the pintle mentioned earlier but I wont have a pic until next month when the lead visits the seller.

T. Alcorn · #15 29-12-09, 19:46

Re: GPMG Soft Mount

I have seen a few Israeli FN MAG 58 Titanium Tripods on the market, around $600-750. It has the same soft mount cradle as seen on the Belgian GPMG Mount.

Anyhooo, I saw one for $600 on Gunbroker, decided to do a Google Search, found Israeli MAG58 Tripods, complete with the AA extension, for $400!
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....CatID=&mySort=

I figure I can fab a Browning M1919 mount on my mill, and resell the tripod for $300 or so. Beats paying $1500 for just the buffered cradle from Sage.

T. Alcorn · #16 15-03-10, 21:14

Well, I decided to build my own GPMG Mounting kit based on the Belgian version. I guestimated the size tubing needed to be 1.75" OD, 0.125" wall. Here's my mount, lightly Mig welded to get me thru the parade, intend to go over it with Tig, make it look nice, and finish the locking mechanisms:

Here's my friend with his son. I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner. He had fun sawing the crowd the airsoft C9A1 I built from an M249 Para.

This one was taken the week before. Notice the crappy tan overspray around the stencil, just like in 2002, eh? This was supposed to be an A Coy 3PPCLI display for the 101st Airborne Division (my old outfit) Band up in Denver, but she jumped timing on the interstate, got towed home.

maple_leaf_eh · #17 15-03-10, 21:35

Only one problem I see with your display - wrong cap badge! It should be an RCR star not PPCLI. (Yeah, 3rd Bn of each regiment is Light Infantry and each one has a jump company, but don't confuse the two units.) Other than that, you've nailed it. As Dan told me, their Materials Techs made the mounts for them locally. As the photo evidence shows, the mounts could look like almost anything. And as the tour close-out pictures show, those vehicles were left behind for the Afghans.

T. Alcorn · #18 16-03-10, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Only one problem I see with your display - wrong cap badge! It should be an RCR star not PPCLI. (Yeah, 3rd Bn of each regiment is Light Infantry and each one has a jump company, but don't confuse the two units.) Other than that, you've nailed it. As Dan told me, their Materials Techs made the mounts for them locally. As the photo evidence shows, the mounts could look like almost anything. And as the tour close-out pictures show, those vehicles were left behind for the Afghans.

Terry,
That gig as C 3PPCLI was because they were attached to the 187th Brigade Combat Team (101st AB Div) in 2002. That was my tie-in, for a non-US vehicle at the band gig.
Udderwise, I like the 3RCR because The Skunque came out of Petawawa. I had some original, worn in-theatre ISAF patches and IR Cdn Flags, etc coming to me, but they disappeared in the mail. Box arrived totally empty. What a freakin' let down. There are fake ISAF patches on eBay, these were actually worn over there and were being donated to my little "rolling museum"

I have yet to post over on the RCR Forum or the Army.ca forum.. so far all I've got are positive remarks. They may be a bit more critical over there.

strat1 · #19 29-03-10, 02:03

Tom

The mount for the TOW Iltis came from the Lav-25 Coyotes that were there as part of the Op Apollo mission. The order came down to strip them off and send them to the Iltis crews.I was a Coyote crew commander during that tour back in 2002.

Anthony

T. Alcorn · #20 29-03-10, 21:33

Thanks for the information, Anthony. I just received this mount from a scrounger:

Has a detachable brass catcher:

The ammo can holder is too small to fit a US .30 cal can. Are the Canadian 7.62 NATO Cans smaller than ours? We continued to use the same can from the 1950's for the M1919A4 but holds two 100rd bandoleers for the M60 or M240B.

Anyhooo, I will probably be mounting this one up on the roll bar maybe with a verticle support between the front seats.

If I can get the gigs worked off, I may take my Skunque out to the big .50 cal and MG shoot they hold here in Colorado every May. Might be a chance to live-fire off of my rig.

T. Alcorn · #21 16-08-10, 09:45

Got my replica of the Belgian-style GPMG Mounting Kit almost done:

The main pedestal attaches to two 3/16" thick 5x8in plates bolted thru the floor and under the body, via a piece of 1.5" OD 0.25" wall tube welded to the plate, and a 0.25" dia clevis pin.

It still needs a secondary attachment under the glovebox for stability, elevation wing nut lock assy and the pintle lock assy installed.

Ed Storey · #22 17-08-10, 16:49

Nice work on restoring the Iltis, the US style bridge classification sign you have mounted on the front of yours is something I have never seen mounted on a Canadian Iltis and for sure if I had, I would have taken a photograph of it.

As noble as your intentions are, I do find it more than a bit disturbing to see an American dressing up as a Canadian for your parades and such. To see comments that you post, "Here's my friend with his son. I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner. He had fun sawing the crowd the airsoft C9A1 I built from an M249 Para" disturbs me even more so. In your original post you stated that your intent was " As appreciation for my Northern Brothers fighting in the GWOT" and now you are kitting out your friends kids as quasi-Canadian Army Cadets (who do not deploy overseas and are are not even issued with C9s even in Canada) and going the route of 'circus atmosphere' that seems to quickly consume these re-enactor style events and parades.

I have no control with what you do with the things you purchase on eBay or are sent by friends; but I feel that it may be a much more appropriate 'tribute' to ditch the dress-up and display your vehicle for what it is, a restored Iltis. If you wish to show some appropriate South-west Asia items in a static display beside you vehicle then fine, but at least take the time to learn what the material is. For instance, in Canada, the insignia worn on berets are called Cap Badges, not crests...

T. Alcorn · #23 17-08-10, 18:46

You know, Ed, of the many past and present Canadian Forces Members I've communicated with over the last 9 months, yours is the only negative comment I've received.

How many years have you been dressing up as a Para without actually jumping?

Mark W. Tonner · #24 17-08-10, 19:35

Tom;

There is no need for mud slinging, although to the point, Ed’s comments were constructive criticism. I myself do not think it is appropriate for someone who is not a serving soldier of any nation to wear current issued uniforms of that nation, regardless of their intentions. A mannequin (or two) correctly kitted out and with the proper accoutrements would be more appropriate in an accompanying static display to your Iltis.

Cheers

RHClarke · #25 17-08-10, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. Alcorn

... I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner.

I think your vehicle restoration is quite well done. I won't get into the "wearing of in-service dress by re-enactors" issue, but will comment on the "cadet" dress. I think I know what you are getting when you mention "RCA". For accuracy's sake, the proper name/abbreviation for the army cadets are Royal Canadian Army Cadets/RCAC. In the Canadian Forces, RCA is the abbreviation for Royal Canadian Artillery. These are two very different organizations. The cadets are a youth group, while the RCA are dealers of death by long distance.

Keep up the great vehicle work!

Ed Storey · #26 19-08-10, 15:10

Thanks Tom for your well articulated response to my comments. As a current serving member of the Canadian Forces, your ability to formulate a proper reply to my comments without resorting to 'mud slinging' just reinforces my feelings about your total unsuitability to correctly and respectfully represent my military at public events.

Scott Bentley · #27 19-08-10, 16:51

Wow... This really went down hill.

I've never been a fan of people dressing up regardless... But i'm normally a live and let live kind of guy. From what i've seen in the US, this is a very normal past time.

Having said that, I feel Tom is getting an unfair shake here. The vehicle he chose to restore just so happens to be from a period that wore the current CF uniform. At the rate we update our uniforms, it will be many years before CADPAT is no longer current, so this really opens a big can of worms for many years down the road. People were wearing OG107 Combats at shows long before those went out of the system.... I've seen it with my own eyes, so this isn't a new thing wearing "current" issue uniforms.

I think the reason he is getting the unfair shake is over the nit-picking of the details of his dress, and wether he should be allowed to wear it at all. All I can say here is that i've seen many many Canadians at shows depicting the CF, and doing a FAR worse job than Tom, and I never saw anyone attacking them over it. Thats where this issue bothers me. People should be eating some Crow here.

The last show I attended in Oshawa, I watched people walking around in Nazi uniforms... How people can attack someone for wearing a current uniform, yet allow that at a show is beyond my level comprehension. Thankfully, there were no former/serving Nazi's around to criticize them about wether their Jackboots and Schmissers were correct.

Tom, I am proud to see a US Citizen taking the time to restore a Canadian Vehicle, and going to the lengths you have gone to in order to get the most correct equipment you can find. The Uniform bit is your choice, and I will not comment about its correctness, as that will require me have to correct anyone else I see at a show who has some mistakes. Besides, I am no longer a Warrant Officer and have better things to do now (OPMEs

) than look at boots and haircuts

Ed, i've got alot of respect for you and the work that you have done, but the CF is "our" (Canada's) military and not yours, and your opinion doesn't speak for me or any other serving member of the CF. Just want to make sure the Arcs of Fire are clear here, none of us a PAFFOs.

Lastly, I promise never to engage in these posts, but in this case I couldn't stop myself.

Ed Storey · #28 19-08-10, 19:02

Scotty, for sure my opinions are those of my own and do not reflect those of the CF.

I certainly agree that there are individuals who do a far worse job than Tom in their depictions of past and present CF uniforms (many of them Canadian) and I don't doubt his intentions are genuine, I am though concerned that his knowledge of the CF may be limited and portrayal of the military may not be accurate. I do though like the work he has done on his Iltis and I am pleased to see that he has restored one to running condition, but as I said earlier, I have doubts on his dress-up presentation.

I wrote earlier that it is the cavalier attitude towards wearing a Canadian uniform that I find distasteful. Going out and purchasing any Canadian 'crest' so that a neighbors son can ride on the Iltis seems to be a pretty big leap from showing honour to 'Northern Brothers' for fighting in the GWOT (his terminology not mine) to more like dressing up in a uniform that is cool and different from what is available locally and standing out in the crowd. Admittedly I have not seen Tom in person so I have no idea what he tells people about Canada's participation in the GWOT or any other conflict for that matter, or how the Cadet organization works, but if his reply to my criticisms is any indication of his ability to debate or defend himself then I have wonder how he handles himself in similar situations when dealing with the public.

Apparently none of us are PAFFOs, although I don't know that for sure, and we can all sit back and tacitly cast the blind eye of indifference to how enthusiasts dress up and portray the military; but at least speaking up and voicing an opinion may bring about a change.