MKII Carrier, 4" Smoke Discharger Info

B. Harris · #1 10-03-10, 02:16

Does anyone have good information and/or pictures on the trigger mech.
From what I can find the MKII does NOT use the "Bowden" cable attached to the trigger of the cut down Ross action. Can some one add to this??
Again this is for the MKII Carrier.
Thanks and cheers, Bruce

Adame · #2 10-03-10, 04:21

HI Bruce

most if not all MKII had the 2" mortars. The 4.5 inch was a MK1 carrier item.

The factory pics you see are not what was in the carriers, If you read Nigels book, it is very true.

Cheer
Adam

derk derin · #3 10-03-10, 07:14

Hi Bruce,
The Mk 1 carrier has the smoke discharger mounted on the right outside hull plate that meant to fire it frome safely inside the carrier,they had the remote cable system so as not to expose the soldier.
The Mk II carrier has the discharger mounted inside the hull to the left of the commander/gunner so you could just simply pull the trigger when ready to discharge without exposing yourself.
I used a Ross action for my discharger but does anybody know if they continued using them in the Mk II carriers?
Derk.

derk derin · #4 10-03-10, 07:26

Bruce,
I came across this MK 2 layout that shows the mounting of the smoke discharger and the fact that you can also mount a 2'' mortar in it's place.

Derk.

Ron Pier · #5 10-03-10, 08:38

Bruce here is the smoke discharger on my MK2. The trigger mechanism is an old deact SMLE that I cut down and discarded the butt. The barrel stub was threaded to screw into the can and a large back nut was made. The can is an original and everything else was copied from an original at the Tank Museum. Let me know if you want me to send you a more detailed picture. Ron

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #6 11-03-10, 04:32

Bruce, are you looking for the difference between a trigger fired and a cable fired Ross discharger? I have both models and can send pics. There were a number of modifications and removals (most significantly the safety) done to standard Model 10 Ross's. SMLE dischargers were also modified by having the safety replaced with a 'non-safety', the mag catch removed, the trigger replaced with one to take a cable and, of course, the barrel cut off and threaded to take the 4" cup and the nut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Harris

Does anyone have good information and/or pictures on the trigger mech.
From what I can find the MKII does NOT use the "Bowden" cable attached to the trigger of the cut down Ross action. Can some one add to this??
Again this is for the MKII Carrier.
Thanks and cheers, Bruce

kevin powles · #7 11-03-10, 10:44

Here is one fitted to a local Mk2 Canadian carrier with british front armour put on. If you need a bigger picture send us your e-mail address and i will send you direct.

kevin.

martyn · #8 11-03-10, 16:57

i took these at overloom museum in holland when we were doing the arnhem trip last year maybe of some help to you?

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #9 12-03-10, 03:55

Here's a picture of the Canadian Ross and British SMLE dischargers. Note the 'NO SAFETY' safety on the left side of the SMLE. The idea was to use a modified rifle safety to keep the bolt in, but not stop the action from firing. The real safety was a cotter pin at the other end of the cable inside the vehicle.

B. Harris · #10 15-03-10, 04:15

Gents,
what a great response so far to this thread. I would encourage everyone to "put their two cents" in here. The whole idea of starting this thread was to get specific details for the mounting, firing, location, rifle action type(s), and accessories as it applies to the MKII Carrier

Adame , the two inch mortar did seem more prevelant than the 4" smoke discharger, however there are a number of period photos that clearly shows a discharger mounted. It also appears that dischargers were an option for some time. Have a look at the two attachments from two different MKII's and the stencil on the stow bin. Also, as any other topic one mans book(s) does not make a bible on any subject. But I will gladly trade you a 4" discharger for a 2" mortar :-) !!!
BTW..Comments on the stencils welcome from all.

Derk, thanks for the photo and the stow diagram as it pertains to the location of the discharger. I believe this drawing was dated July 1943. I am also own a MKII and I looking to expose as much info as I can as it applies to the MKII. There seems to be less information on these marks in general.

Ron, lovely pic of your carrier and the SMLE type discharger. It seems there is a number of people who have modified an action of sorts to build what they need. Thanks verra much for the offer of addition photos. I will drop you a note if required.

Bruce, thanks from the forum for posting your pics. Both excellent examples for others to study and learn. My quest is to have the correct rifle action (with proper trigger/safety mods), tube, and "Bowden" cable mech if necessary. Any further details for the Ross M10 action and subsequent mods necessary as they apply to the MKII carrier application would be most helpfull.
Also, perhaps other members whos are following could provide any pictures for the launching rounds, smoke rounds and the muzzle covers would be great.

Kevin, thanks for your input. There seems to be a large number of dischargers put on members machines.

Martyn, Now thats a different type of launcher altogether. I thought only the British could make someting more complex and dangerous to operate, but this one seems like some sort of whale harpoon launching device!! As everything else in this hobby, variations abound!! Please keep up the good work.

Again thanks to all for your input and photos, please keep it all coming.
Cheers Bruce

Lynn Eades · #11 15-03-10, 06:37

I bought these photos a a gun show last year, here in N.Z.

Lynn Eades · #12 15-03-10, 07:51

Although off topic, these are good images, so have decided to post all of them. The credit is on the last image.

Lynn Eades · #13 15-03-10, 08:00

I would guess that Martyn's harpoon gun is a later production, purpose built unit, rather than the earlier production adaptions from std. issue rifles.

tankbarrell · #14 15-03-10, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I would guess that Martyn's harpoon gun is a later production, purpose built unit, rather than the earlier production adaptions from std. issue rifles.

Indeed, it is the 'Bomb thrower no 3' and it used a falling block action a la Martini Henri. these were the more common type in NW Europe and were often seen on early Shermans.

I have a pair on mine.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #15 18-03-10, 01:24

Just to be clear and say it....these dischargers are cut down rifles and are very prohibited and illegal in Canada. They must be deactivated to the firearms guidelines and pinned and welded as mine are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Here's a picture of the Canadian Ross and British SMLE dischargers. Note the 'NO SAFETY' safety on the left side of the SMLE. The idea was to use a modified rifle safety to keep the bolt in, but not stop the action from firing. The real safety was a cotter pin at the other end of the cable inside the vehicle.

horsa · #16 18-03-10, 04:59

Adding to what Bruce has posted, these are permitted in the USA but fall under the "short barrel rifle" definition

according to ATF so require Class III papers with the same finger print cards, background check and $200 tax that applies for owning a machine gun. Basically if you can vote in the USA, you can legally own one once registered but you are a Felon waiting to be arrested if you start work cutting down a rifle prior to receiving your papers with tax stamp affixed.

Took four months to get a ruling on what they would classify the device since it could be seen as a pistol, mortar or short barreled rifle depending on how you looked at it. Then the applications could be filled out and submitted.

Took several more months to get them to sign off on it but that is due to their agency being overwhelmed by people doing modern firearms registrations since Mr. ’O took office and stirred up the gun community.

Ron Pier · #17 18-03-10, 09:18

I think this is a grey area here in UK? I took a legally deactivated SMLE and cut it down. Legally I might have done something wrong, but logically what difference can it make? There is also an issue with any form of grenade or smoke launcher. I have heard of Ferret owners having to remove those six tubes ( dischargers). Also a mortar tube is supposed to be deactivated by being drilled through and having metal bars welded across the tube, to stop any projectile being inserted. How dangerous is a piece of metal tube without the bomb? Ron

RichardT10829 · #18 18-03-10, 09:31

Ron you have stepped into a sticky patch potentially as you have "Modified" the weapon which can place it back within the section 1 boundiary, also specific weapons with muzzle lengths shorter than (......cant remember the figure) fall into section 1 if you like i can raise the question at work not mentioning any names of course to see what the legality is ?

Ron Pier · #19 18-03-10, 12:50

Oh my Gawd! Richard don't say you're with MI5? I was only joking! I didn't really do it. Also I don't live at my address anymore

R?N

RichardT10829 · #20 18-03-10, 13:54

HAHAHAHAHAHA just spat my tea up.......not that far but i could be construed as being of the "Black Rats" Brigade

i will look into it for us UKer's so we know where we stand.

rob love · #21 18-03-10, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Just to be clear and say it....these dischargers are cut down rifles and are very prohibited and illegal in Canada. They must be deactivated to the firearms guidelines and pinned and welded as mine are.

Debatable.

Yes, the FART says that the gun is prohib.

It is kind of a loaded question as to what is illegal about them. The receiver itself is not substantially different than a regular non-restricted Enfield or Ross. It will be due to the barrel being cut down. But is it? Are these original barrels that have been cut and machined, or new barrels that were made for the purpose of the smoke discharger. If new, and the length is more than 104mm from the breech face to the end of the barrel, then, the barrel is would not be prohibited device. Bit if it was an original barrel, and it has been shortened to below 18", then the barrel is a prohibited device.

What I did to get around all of this was first to oblong the bore of the short barrel so if a round was fired, the gas would merely escape beside the bullet. If the gun cannot achieve the required velocity, then it is not registrable here in Canada. I also pin the barrel so that it cannot accept a live round, but only the shorter 303 blank. This method was also used by on the blank fire brens at one time to prevent live rounds from being chambered in a blank fire barrel. If the gun cannot fire a round that will cause bodily harm, then it is not a firearm. I pin the barrel to the receiver so the barrel cannot be replaced.

Voila, capable of blank fire but not a firearm.

The Deactivation guidelines are just that, and a judge already ruled that they have no force of law in Canada. What the law does say, is if the gun can easily be made to fire a projectile and cause bodily harm.

Let the debate begin, but that is my take on the smoke dis-chargers in Canada.

Adame · #22 18-03-10, 17:03

Hey

This would make an easy smoke conversion to a 4 " smoke discharger.

http://yhst-5672966975550.stores.yahoo.net/swjawa.html

Adam

RichardT10829 · #23 18-03-10, 18:10

Jawa blaster ? as in Starwars ? damn those teddy bears had primative weapons even if they were from a galaxy far far away

cletrac (RIP) · #24 19-03-10, 02:40

Here's one with the Bowden cable on ebay for someone.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Smoke-Discharger...item19bac7f7c0

martyn · #25 21-03-10, 00:30

question for you all i was thinking about putting the 4inch smoke discharger bracket on my carrier but it has a deep water bracket welded to the out side of the hull just where i want to drill my holes, have any of you got a mk2 with the bracket in side and the deep water bracket on the out side? if so could you post a couple of photos from the inside and out for me to work from as i am going to have to cut the welds and counter sink the holes for two of the bolts.

cheers
martyn

Jordan Baker · #26 21-03-10, 02:36

The brk for the MK2 carrier is different then the Mk1 carrier. I have a repo of the Mk2 brk. I wonder if you could tap the holes and just screw 2 bolts in.

derk derin · #27 21-03-10, 06:18

I don't know how you guys set up a link to ebay items but here is the number to a discharger tube currently on ebay right now.Maybe somebody can have a look and set up a link for people to view?Item number: 250599730029
Derk.

cletrac (RIP) · #28 21-03-10, 07:03

When you're on ebay, right click on the address window at the top of the browser then left click on copy. When you're reply to thread on MLU click on the blue circle icon that says insert link. Then right click on that little window and then click paste. Press enter and it's inserted.

Ross discharger

martyn · #29 24-03-10, 23:40

hi are the measurements on this ross discharger listed on ebay correct 10 inch long 4inch ID 4 1/2 inch OD as i am going to make a dummy tube.
also what is the thread thats on the end ? and i take it the adaptor is a male /male threaded nut type thing ?

I got around the problem of cutting off the bracket its lucky that the holes on the mk2 bracket fell inside the deep water bracket plate, so i drilled and counter sunk the two holes in the deep water bracket and just put flat slotted c/s bolts in looks like a propper army mod now, should have thort about this when building the new sides but didnt think i would find bits like a 4inch smoke discharger bracket i made a simular mistake with the rear wings/ mud guards copied a pair that were off a carrier with a tow hitch then altered the to fit mine with out now ive found a hitch assembly so have to cut them out again....... Bloody typicial

Ron Pier · #30 25-03-10, 12:53

Hi Martyn.
I just measured my original smoke discharger.
I can confirm the O/D is 4.5" and I/D 4" therefore wall thickness =1/4"
However the length of mine is nearer 9.5"....oow err missus!

Not sure what you mean about the nut? It's a nut with a hex on the back edge and heavy splined edge at the front for finger tightening. I can't remember what thread it is, but I can check if necc. I can also give dimensions of the nut if required.

Have a look at the state of my mounting bracket. I think it came from a carrier in Pounds yard that the tide had been coming in and over for years. Ron