Odiham ww2 vehicle pics

[Noel Burgess]

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

[chrisgrove]

Hi guys

Having lived close to Odiham in my (long ago) youth, I would advise that it lies between Fleet and BASINGSTOKE (not to be confused with RAF Bassingbourn - not far from Cambridge).

It is now the place where the RAF's helicopters are based.

Nice pics. I like those Albions.

Chris

[Larry Hayward]

Ted,

Regarding RAF cammo I appreciate that units going to France and Middle East would have dispensed with RAF Blue but I have read in Mike Starmers books that RAF blue was still in use in the UK until circa summer 1940 when units, likely to come under air attack in Southern Britain, painted their vehicles in cammo, with what ever they had. Then, as you and Mike Starmer both say, the RAF conformed to Army schemes from 1941.

How strange then that you still see mid to late war RAF vehicles at rallies and on TV painted RAF blue!

Regarding the registrations of RAF vehicles do you know whether records are kept of these: I have the vehicle registrations for some vehicles used by the RAF but the records only refer in basic terms ie Tender or 30 cwt but do not say what make. I would be interested to find the vehicle type from the registration.

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

Noel great photo is there a date for it please

TED

[ted angus]

Larry, Mike and I have been in touch on various aspects of the subject.
I am certainly NOT directing this comment towards Mike's work but one big problem with research is many researchers have no in depth knowledge of the SERVICE (Army RAF RN ) that they are researching and consequently can easily misinterpret what they unearth. Orders , instructions, policy etc were promulgated from higher authority to units/stations by various means, signals(telex) directing letters and formal orders such as ACIs in the Army and AMOs in the RAF are 3 examples.. this is still the case ; as we prepared for gulf war one our camo painting instructions came by signal; in years to come researchers will scour DCIs etc but find next to nothing on the subject.
returning to the WW2 the earliest AMO originally found re camo was in the AMO A series A618/1941 of 7 Aug 1941. This is the AMO repeatedly used by various authors as the date the RAF went totally to camo for vehicles. After much digging I recently found an earlier AMO on the subject but rather strangely it is in the N series of AMOs N629/1941 of 5 june 1941 which states all impressed vehicles must be camo painted but not hired vehicles. So that alone brings forward by 2 months the previously considered start date.
The next thing is that the content of many AMOs would have been pre-notified by letter or signal because of the lead time on AMOs. AMOs were published several times a month; they were normally in the form of a booklet,the cover page gave the AMO numbers contained and a brief title of each AMO. Each batch normally took about 3 months from the different depts submitting AMOs to the collation, type setting, proof reading then printing, then distribution through the food chain.
The big problem is the files containing the signals and letter initiating actions in advance of the first AMO on the subject have no doubt long gone, all that seems to be left at TNA Kew are items from files involving RAE Farnborough whose chemists were heavily involved in developing the camo colours for both the RAF and Army for vehicles. From them I gleaned the ME theatre colours and also the statement that the RAF were following the same colours as the Army. Beyond that at the moment we can only go by photo graphic evidence and with the internet and greater exchange of images etc more and more evidence is coming to light. statements on the use of building and aircraft camo paints on MT has been repeated countless times in various publications. I no longer believe this to be the case in more than a handful of cases. Aircraft paint was extremely closely controlled by MoS later MAP etc , many aircraft were finished in cellulose which was not suitable for applying over the enamel paint that MT was finished in. At the outbreak of war most buildings were brick or concrete - the metal T2 and Bellman hangers came in mostly after the outbreak of hostilities- and the paint used on brick and concrete was not suitable for vehicles. A letter at TNA mentions the acknowledgement that units had been procuring their own supplies of vehicle camo paint. Its my guess that the colours would have been circulated as a guide by signal or letter and units would then have ordered what they could obtain and of course afford, from their LPO budgets.
The end result for us many years later is that only part of the story remains in the archives. Consequently it is too easy for researchers to be led to the wrong conclusions.
Turning to reg numbers I have been searching for 30 years for the pre 1949 ledgers, they were held by an RAF Maintenance Command HQ dept in Derby, but where they went once the new system was commenced nobody knows.
re vehicles in blue in preservation ask the majority of people at any show or rally what colour were RAF vehicles in the WW2 and they will say blue just as reputable model manufacturers are issueing kits of vehicles that never saw RAF service and the paint and markings guides with them give colours and marking again which were never used !!

Regards TED

[ted angus]

Larry, a couple of other snippets re the intro date of camo; On the RAF vehicle thread post 42 Les posted a piccy of camo RAF in France this pre dates May 1940; in various publications there is the suggestion that units in the south east began applying cam as the German attacks began; a ceremony up here over the weekend reminded me the first over UK kill was 603 Sqn operating out of Turnhouse, long before S.E,. airfield were attacked Turnhouse along with the nearby Rosyth naval base were receiving regular unwanted attention.
TED

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by Noel Burgess

The last photo appears to be one of these - wich is stated to be a mobile dark room trailer.
Noel

I think we can safely date this picture; All Field Force vehicles of the BEF Air Component and the Advanced Air Striking Force were to bear a 2 or 3 inch high 3 digit number preceded with an A for admin purposes as it was not permissible to mark vehicles with a sqn or unit marking for security purposes. The BEF Air Component embarked in late august /early sept 1939, so my conclusion is within that 4 week window. .
The trailer can be identified as a 3 ton Brockhouse by its torsion bar suspension, its RAF description is a Trailer 3 ton Photographic Type J.

TED

[Noel Burgess]

Ted
Sorry did not keep a note of the photo date and can't find it online right now. It is part of the Charles Brown collection and was one of a series of prints offered for sale for some commemorative/fundraising purpose [pretty sure I first read about it on this forum] I took copies of one or two "for research purposes" and below is another of a similar trailer
Noel
P.S. this is the first time I've seen use of the "Hats, Sun" on an airfield

[ted angus]

Thanks for sharing Noel, possibly the hats are for identification purposes possibly a pre hostilities war game ?? Normally these trailers would be shoehorned into a hedgerow etc the civvy car appears to have unmasked headlights ??

regards TED

[Larry Hayward]

Ted I understand what you are saying regarding the records but from what you have found so far, when do you think RAF blue was overpainted on 'frontline' RAF vehicles in the UK during WW2; Sept 1939 or post Dunkirk?

[ted angus]

From the photo evidence, units issued with warning orders for service with the Air Component Field Force would possibly have commenced camo painting late july /early August 1939, whilst most of the warned units embarked for France some didn't. General Alert was called about a week before the famous speech. From what I have read in Operational Order Books, Station and Sqn war books contained lists of measures to be initiated as the alert state went up. I would think camo painting would have been one along with aircraft dispersal, sandbagging, opening and equiping shelters etc etc. So my best guess is it commenced on non Field Force units in the weeks or week prior to declaring war.
Larry you use the word "Frontline"; as far as the RAF in UK was concerned it is difficult to quantify frontline; we could say Biggin Hill North Weald etc etc. most publications say the south east of England was the frontline, but this is something else I don't fully subscribe to. Turnhouse and Drem were the first frontline units as German based ac attacked their sectors in a bid to hit Rosyth and of course the protecting aerodromes. In addition the RAF crane on a 42 Group Maintenance Command Maintenance Unit loading bombs, oxygen cylinders and fuel into railway waggons for delivery to the operational aerodromes was to me as big a target as many airfields and therefore equally frontline in the context we are mulling over. . Even the barrage balloon winch trucks seem to have received a lick of camo very early on. I wish I could spend a month at Kew and Hendon and with the air historical branch; when the answers are found I don't think it will be a "tell all" document but it will be a one sentence comment in something like a Station or Sqn operations log that will reveal some key parts of the jigsaw.
Regards
TED

[Noel Burgess]

Ted (and anyone else who might be interested) I think I've found a date and description for the second trailer photo I posted...
"Photo developer or maybe flight office at Hornchurch 1940, 25 Sqn Blenhiem Mk1"

Noel